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Moderator Tacan Ildem

Well, we are at a very important segment of this gathering. And I have witnessed your excitement, Mr Secretary General, during the signing ceremonies. And also when you are, you were announcing some of the initiatives on the part of NATO in engaging with industries. It is now your time as two leaders of both NATO and the European Union to have a conversation. And it was gratifying for me to see both leaders co-authoring an article for The Economist enumerating some of the ideas that you share. And in the article, one thing that struck me was that you argue that Europe's era to outsource much of its defence is over. And that deterrence is no longer with military capabilities, but also having our industries to produce more, in a very speedy fashion and in a better way. So we still consider, of course, capabilities as something important. Nevertheless, you may perhaps both discuss a bit on the industrial capacity innovation ecosystem, and most important, resilience, which has become a currency of security in our time. So perhaps President von der Leyen, if you can start, how you see the new environment in which defence industry has become so important for all of us, both NATO and the European Union.

President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen

Thank you so much for having us here. This is a great opportunity indeed to show how closely we are working together, the European Union and NATO. Actually, I was just thinking today one of the reasons is, my dear friend Mark, because we have both experiences on both sides. You were for 14 or 16 years, 14 years Prime Minister, so he was in the European Council, and I was for 5 years Defence Minister, so I was sitting in NATO. Now it's the other way around, and therefore we know both how important a close cooperation between the European Union and NATO is.

Second, I just listened to the panel before us. And it's very clear all member states of the European Union and Allies have one single set of forces. So they assign these single set of forces either to NATO missions or to EU missions, UN missions or Coalition of the Willing, but to make this possible, what we need is interoperability. And of course, in this geostrategic and geopolitical environment, we need a massive surge in defence investment. And here the European Union is indeed massively stepping up.

We have our ReArm Europe programme, which mobilises up to 800 billion euros until 2030. In this programme is SAFE. SAFE, 150 billion euros for joint procurement. And not to forget, the next long-term budget will have 131 billion euros for military capabilities, plus 17 billion euros for military mobility, which is also of utmost importance, streets, bridges, ports, airports, etcetera. The infrastructure also has to be here on the European side.

And on SAFE is for us very important, as I said, the joint procurement. Here we have good news, we have now 10 agreements worth 100 billion euros. SAFE is per design open also to partners and other countries. 35% of the cost components can go outside the European Union, but of course 65% have to be in the European Union, and that's the point, how we strengthen the defence industrial base, because with this taxpayer's money, we want, of course, a return on investment. And we want good jobs in Europe, we want research and development in Europe, so that's important for us.

My last sentence on this, the door is more open than the 35% for countries outside the European Union. If there is a security and defence agreement signed, Canada is the first one to have done this, so these possibilities are also there. So, you see a wide spectrum of investment.

Moderator Tacan Ildem

Well, Secretary General, if you can also share your perspectives.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte

Well, basically, I totally agree. The great thing is we know each other so long and, of course, there is a clear division of labour we both agree on, so that's why we can strengthen each other's roles. So, NATO is about command and control capabilities and standards. Basically all the other things have to be handled by Europe and the EU, of course, is crucial there. And 23 of NATO Allies are also in the European Union, so most of the NATO Allies are also a member of the European Union. And when you look at issues like indeed making sure the money is there, the 800 billion, crucial programme. But also when it comes to indeed military mobility, when it comes to societal resilience, when it comes to developing the defence industrial base, this is all what the EU is working on.

You appointed Andrius Kubilius, the first Defence Commissioner, I think, in the history of the European Commission. He is working on that with a specific focus under your leadership, and I think that's all evidence. And we have got, we've got to do this, because the threat is there, we cannot continue as we did, being over reliant on the United States. We need this much stronger Europe in a stronger NATO, and we can only get there when we work together seamlessly as one, using and leveraging each other’s strength. And that's what we are doing.

Moderator Tacan Ildem

Well, we all know that it is important for Europeans to strengthen their strategic responsibility. I rather prefer using strategic responsibility, rather than autonomy, in order to have the transatlantic bond as strong as ever. While doing so, of course, NATO is most appreciative of the initiatives taken by the European Union. You mentioned SAFE, of course. There are many others, European Defence Fund, PESCO, EDIRPA, ReArm. And of course, in creating capabilities, translating cash to capabilities, the European Union needs to look not only to the capabilities of the member states, and Europe is more than the European Union. And I would like to ask to you, President Ursula von der Leyen, since the audience here is also including Turkish participants, how you see the involvement of non-EU Allies. You mentioned Canada, but there are others, including Türkiye, a way forward to properly involve Türkiye in such projects. If you can touch upon it, I'm sure they will be quite receptive.

President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen

Yes, Türkiye is one of the largest armed forces within NATO, of very big importance, and has always played an important role in the Alliance, but also of course in our relationship with the European Union. And as I said, if you only look at SAFE, which are the 150 billion euros, 35% - that’s a lot - is open to work, for example, together with Türkiye. But the 800 billion up to 2030 is the decision of the member states how to invest their defence allocation in order to fill the gaps, so there's a wide opportunity to have a very close cooperation with each other.

For us, it's very important to be totally aligned with the NATO targets, because, as I said, the one single set of forces we know where the gaps are, and we have to work very closely together. So, for example, the NDPP, the NATO Defence Planning Process, is for us very important, so that we fill the gaps in a cost-efficient manner. But I want to add another point. We also want to work very closely with Ukraine. The panel before us described the phenomenal innovative power that Ukraine has, and this we have to use because we have to step up in our defence capabilities fast, at a reasonable cost and smart. And Ukraine has proven all this in the last years under the pressure of the war. This is the reason why the European Union, for the first time, opened an innovation office in Kyiv to have the direct contact with the Kyiv industrial base.

Secondly, we are encouraging our companies to go into joint venture with Ukrainian companies, and thirdly, we, as a European Union, are working on a longer-term partnership in order to look how to boost our cutting-edge technology base in our defence industrial base in the European Union together with Ukraine. We can learn a lot from Ukraine, and we have to learn a lot because they are not only highly innovative, but also battlefield experienced. So this whole picture shows how much we are stepping up here together with NATO, because we share the same interests and we share the same values, and we know what's up.

Moderator Tacan Ildem

Secretary General, you in your remarks told that the priority for Ankara Summit would be also to have a proper follow-up of The Hague Summit meeting with the decisions taken there. Of course, when European Allies elevate their contributions in burden sharing, it should not translate itself to decoupling transatlantic bond. To maintain it is of vital importance. But talking about the defence industrial capacity, there are few earlier initiatives like DIANA Innovation Fund, but you also today touched upon some new ones. What would be the priorities for NATO in years ahead to focus and deliver, and what industrial community could expect, and what you expect from them?

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte

Basically, the priority is for our defence industrial base in Europe, in Canada, in the US, to produce more. We are making progress. It's really getting much better. You see, in Europe, more production lines, more factories being opened. I mentioned in my short speech the ammunition, which is really, when it comes to the output, it's a huge increase in production, but we need this across the defence industrial base in, again, in Europe, Canada, and in the US, because Russia has the whole of its economy now on a war footing. So the car industry in Russia is producing for the war effort, and that means that we've got to do this also in Europe, Canada, and the US.

And what we are seeing at the moment is a transformation which is unparalleled since the end of the Cold War, where Europe is taking so much more responsibility for the conventional defence of NATO, of this part of NATO territory, with still a strong US presence also going forward, both nuclear and conventional. But it is a NATO transformed where the US has a strong partner in Europe, much stronger than it was only 4 or 5 years ago. Therefore, the whole of NATO is stronger.

As the German Defence Minister said the other day, to maintain, to stay transatlantic, we have to become more European, and that's exactly what is happening. And you see some of the key leadership roles in NATO now being taken over by Europeans. You see, the Europeans taking the lead on Ukraine and the support for Ukraine, with still crucial supply from the US, but paid for by European and Canadian Allies. We see it again with some of the commands in NATO taking over by Europeans. We see the forward land forces more and more Europeanised. With still US presence, but and also the three Sentries, Baltic, Arctic, and Eastern, very much European dominated. This is what we need. So, this cooperation between NATO, the European Union is leading to a transformation, which again is unparalleled, and we need it, because in the end it makes us stronger.

Moderator Tacan Ildem

Well, there is a geopolitical transformation in general with its rupture, unfortunate rupture, and certainly it is necessary to also have a transformation of mindset and it requires perhaps, as many have touched upon already, not to see governments as the only stakeholders, but it should be a combination of contributions from others, including industry. So we used to talk more about whole of government approach, perhaps on resilience you may talk a bit about a whole of society approach, so perhaps we may start with you.

President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen

Yeah, the whole of society approach is very important, because we do not only see the conventional, or let's say, the military threat out there, but the whole hybrid attacks that we are suffering from are targeting towards the society. For example, if you take foreign interference and manipulation of information, internet-based, this is a big issue, which is targeting the society's vulnerability, and where you have to build resilience. And this is something which we are working intensively on too, to set the record straight, to convince with facts and figures, to be clear in all these debates, internet-based, what the truth is and what the right facts and figures are, and you can win these battles. We've seen this in different scenarios that you can really convince people. If you look at the Eurobarometer measuring opinions of people, they say very clearly that one of their top worries is security and resilience. So the Europeans have understood how important it is to defend our democracy, to defend our values, to stand up for freedom and for peace. So this approach of whole of society is the precondition to be successful.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte

I completely agree and let me just give one example, Türkiye, how you have organised your defence industry with the Turkish Defence Industry Secretariat directly reporting to the President. You have about 3,000 defence industrial companies working closely together, small, medium-sized, the bigger ones, basically exporting all over NATO territory, and of course producing for Türkiye itself, and also exporting outside NATO. I think that's a model which is very interesting, and I know that some other Allies are studying it to see whether they could implement it in their country.

So, it's just one example of a whole society approach when it comes to defence industry. And more generally, it is indeed as Ursula is saying, it is the realisation Europeans have that first task of government is to keep our country safe. The second task is to have a strong economy, and you need both to deter the Russians. We need strong economies, healthy finances connected to strong economies, but first of all, we have to defend ourselves. It's the first task of every government, and the threat is there, Russia working with North Korea, Iran, and China. Let's not be naive.

Moderator Tacan Ildem

So, this Forum, in fact, is a showcase of this interaction, strong interaction between governments and industry. I see the clock. It seems that we have come to the end of this important conversation. And once again, thank you for sharing your views, and it's always a pleasure to see both of you. Thank you.