Remarks

Moderator Ghida Fakhry (TRT World):
Secretary General Stoltenberg, you're used to dealing with these sorts of thorny issues ever since you took over as Secretary General of NATO in 2014 – certainly tensions with former Soviet republics from that point onwards. You heard the Prime Minister's [of Ukraine, Denys Shmyhal] repeated pleas: they want more help, they don't just want words of support. Is NATO able and willing to offer them concrete help?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
Yes, absolutely. And NATO and NATO Allies are providing concrete support. First of all, we have supported them for many years since 2014 with equipment, but not least. Many Allies have trained tens of thousands of Ukrainian forces. And this proves extremely important now because so many of these troops are on the frontlines fighting invading Russian forces. It is of course first and foremost the courage of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian leadership that has stopped and slowed down the Russian invasion, but the support that NATO Allies have provided with training and equipment since 2014 has proven to be extremely important in support for those efforts.

Second, we have stepped up, so NATO Allies are now providing more support, both military support and humanitarian support, and fiscal support, financial support. And then of course, we are imposing unprecedented sanctions on Russia. And all this is actually crippling the Russian economy. So the combination of concrete support and sanctions on Russia puts heavy pressure on President Putin and increases the reasons he will have to at some stage sit down and engage in good faith in the diplomatic effort. So yes, of course…

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
Do you really believe that these sanctions will have that sort of impact that they will compel President Putin to send back his troops in a week or two or even three, that these political pressures will go anywhere besides inflicting that economic cost, not just on the people of Ukraine, but on people around the world? Look at the rise in energy prices and the price of meat around the world.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
No one wants these sanctions of course, these sanctions are costly for the whole world, including for those countries which are imposing sanctions. But at the same time, we have to react when we see Russia is blatantly violating international law, invading in a brutal way an independent sovereign country: Ukraine. And 140 nations at the UN condemned that strongly. NATO and NATO Allies have imposed severe sanctions to put maximum pressure on Russia. And that increased likelihood for them at some stage accepting that they have to sit down at the negotiating table – like we heard from the Prime Minister [of Ukraine, Denys Shmyhal], every war has to end at the negotiating table. The question is how long we have to wait for that. And therefore with the pressure on Russia, both by the sanctions, but also by providing support to Ukraine – they are on the front line, they are paying by far the highest price. But NATO Allies and other countries all over the world are helping them, supporting them, including with military support.

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
But what do you say to those who believe that NATO, in fact, should take a large part of responsibility, of the blame and letting the situation get to what it is today? In pursuing the Alliance’s provocative – many people would argue – so-called ‘Open Door Policy’, bringing in more and more countries from Eastern Europe, the Russians have had it as a red line for a long time preceding President Putin. You call this his war, but we know it has been well documented, senior US officials and others have said that the rationale in Russia has been – and in the Soviet Union proceeding that – that Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO was a major issue, that it could lead to this major conflagration and here we are today. Don't you take part of the blame, in fact a large part of the blame?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
No, not at all. And just the idea that it is provocative that certain nations do what they want, just demonstrates the kind of completely wrong worldview that reflects.
I'm coming from a small country, Norway, bordering Russia. And when we joined NATO back in 1949, Stalin and Russia and the Soviet Union said that was a provocation. But I'm very glad that London, Paris and Washington said, “Well, that's for Norway to decide”. And we applied and they accepted us. So this idea that big powers can decide what small neighbours can do, and if they do something they don't like that's a provocation – you know, that's a world I don't want to live in.

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
But let’s face it, this is the world we live in. Many see Ukraine as a pawn in a big power struggle between the United States and Russia, let’s face it. Is it a wise policy to continue–?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
You speak as if NATO is moving east. No, it is independent… Slovenia is one nation, Romania is another, Poland, the Baltic countries – they have through democratic free decisions made their own choices and chosen their own path. And I think it's extremely important that we respect those free democratic decisions. If you start to re-introduce some kind of right for big powers to decide what neighbours can do, then we are moving backwards. Then we are moving into a world where we don't have free sovereign nations. Russia has subscribed to again and again – from the Helsinki Final Act to the Paris Accord, many other documents – that every nation has the right to choose their own path, including what kind of security arrangements they want to be part of. We respect Ukraine when they want to join, but also for us, of course, respect Sweden and Finland when they decide not to join. Russia should respect free and independent decisions by free and independent nations, that's all it’s about.

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
It's about respecting freedom and the sovereignty of nations.
There's something called the Monroe Doctrine, are you suggesting that the 200 year old doctrine has ended, but the sphere of influence of the US had in the world does not exist anymore? Because let's imagine for a second that missiles were positioned, Russian or Chinese missiles were placed in Cuba or Mexico or Venezuela.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
I'm not defending everything United States have done throughout 200 years. I have actually been going on the streets also protesting against some of these wars. But the fact that one nation does something wrong in decades, it doesn't in a way excuse the severe mistakes of another. So the whole thinking again, that… you have to start at the basics. The basic is: does an independent, sovereign nation has the right to choose its own path? Yes or no. If you start to question that, you move into a world, which Russia now tries to re-establish by using force. The Ukrainians have [been] standing up against that. They deserve our support. We are supporting that. And it's really impressive to see the strength and the courage they are now demonstrating in the fight against this [inaudible].

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
Thank you. Before I move on, what is the price of peace for you? As Secretary General of NATO I know you don't hold all the decisions in your hand, but would you be willing to pay a small price by stating, by suggesting that NATO should not expand, expand eastward of course? And when you see the potential membership of Ukraine in NATO as a [inaudible]? Are you willing to state that NATO should not expand any further?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
So, first of all it is for Ukraine to decide and I respect their decision whenever it's or whether it's to join or not to join.
Second what Russia has proposed the legally binding draft agreement for NATO is that we should sign the agreement with them stopping any further enlargement of NATO. And I think it was very interesting to listen to, for instance, Sweden and Finland. They're not currently applying for membership, but they came very strongly out against that idea. Because for them that was to limit their options in the future. So this goes beyond Ukraine. This, what Russia is asking for is actually a ban on any further enlargement of NATO. And again, it's not NATO moving east. It's actually those countries, again Slovenia, the Baltic countries, Poland…, who have chosen to join our family and this has been a great success. It has helped to spread freedom and democracy across Europe for several decades.

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
The Russians have been more specific here in the case of Ukraine. They're asking for Ukraine to abide to the principle of neutrality? Just like Austria was forced to after World War II. Would that be a good idea?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
But you said it forced to…Do you want to live in a world where big powers force small countries to do what they don't want to do? Because that's not the world that I could live in. So the whole idea that it is a provocation for Russia that Ukraine does what they want to do is to turn the worlds upside down, and violate the fundamental principles, which also Russia and subscribe to. So it is for Ukraine to decide whether they want to aspire for membership. And then there's of course for 30 NATO Allies to decide whether Ukraine is ready for membership. And it has been clear for a long time that membership for Ukraine was not something that was imminent, not something which is relevant in the near future. But again, this is what the principle of respecting every nations right to choose their own path.

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
If it is the only way to stop the war tomorrow? Is the word considering yes or no?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
But again, this is for Ukraine to decide. I support Ukraine to decide on its own path. And then of course for 30 allies to decide when Ukraine is ready. And this is not something that is relevant or on the agenda for the near future.

Moderator Ghida Fakhry:
Thank you Secretary General.