NATO HQ , Brussels 25 Apr. 2006

Background briefing by NATO Secretary General, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer on the upcoming ministerial meeting in Sofia, Bulgaria JAMES APPATHURAI (NATO Spokesman): Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming. Normally, of course, this is sort of a demonstration of evolution. On a day-to-day basis you get me, before ministerials, usually get an ASG, but we've moved to the evolutionary scale at NATO and the Secretary General has very kindly agreed to give his own pre-brief for Sofia . So as you can see this is all on the record and the SecGen has about half an hour, 40 minutes. JAAP DE HOOP SCHEFFER (NATO Secretary General): Yeah, about. APPATHURAI: So without any further ado let me turn it over the SecGen and then we'll have time for questions afterwards. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Thanks very much. I know you prefer James, but you have to put up with me this afternoon. Let me give you a few remarks on Sofia Thursday and Friday. Informal meeting of NATO Foreign Ministers, so no formal decision making. Second remark, important building block for the Riga Summit. Foreign Ministers of NATO do not meet this often and I do consider, and I know they do as well, this is an important building block for Riga because Sofia will help to shape the subjects which will be discussed in Riga . And then of course, given the fact that these are Foreign Ministers with the focus on the political "volet," to say it in French, of Riga . When Defence Ministers will meet here in June we'll discuss the military volet. Now it's political. Political in the sense that the discussion on those political subjects which are relevant and important for NATO's ongoing transformation. Let me mention a few. First of all, what about NATO's partnerships? How can we make our partnerships stronger? How can we enhance and get in better touch with those nations who are not in NATO's partnership structures? How can we, in other words, relate to nations who are either participating in NATO's missions and operations? Let me mention Australia , which is going to participate in ISAF in Afghanistan . Let me mention New Zealand, who has, as you know, a Provincial Reconstruction Team in Afghanistan, which will come, as ISAF expands, under ISAF. But also in the political domain. You might remember that the South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-Moon was here to talk to the North Atlantic Council. That in a few weeks time we'll have the Japanese Foreign Minister Aso coming to the Council. In other words, you can think of many elements of bringing those nations, relevant for NATO from a value perspective, relevant for NATO from a contributing perspective in NATO's operations or missions, or relevant for NATO from a more political perspective. How to bring them into the fold. This is the start of a discussion, so it's not possible for me, and not easy to give you all the answers, but I think the general thrust of this discussion is that NATO has to give the answers of the 21st Century to questions which present themselves in this 21st Century and it would be wrong to go on in answering 21st Century questions by 20th Century answers. And that means that we have to be a bit innovative in this respect. And when I mention nations like Australia and New Zealand I should also, of course, mention, if you look at the participation in operations and missions our European partners, not members of NATO. The Swedes, the Finns, the Austrians, the Swiss. To avoid any misunderstanding, this is not doing away with NATO's existing partnerships. We have the Partnership for Peace, we have the EPC, but it is trying to find the answers in a new and very challenging security and political environment. If you are in Afghanistan and if that is NATO's first priority and many nations participate, talk to them. Talk to them because they participate, but also talk to them in the political sense. This is not making NATO into a global alliance, but it is making NATO into an alliance with global partners because the threats and challenges are of a global nature. And that is the first important subjects Ministers will discuss. And which will certainly be and figure prominently on the Riga Summit agenda. NATO will be NATO. The core of NATO is not changing. We're not talking about membership, to avoid other misunderstandings. Article 5 is Article 5. NATO will retain its core function. But I hope you understand what I mean by this 20th, 21st Century remarks I made. A second important political element which will be discussed by the Foreign Ministers, and that's, of course, again relates, as I said, to Riga, is future NATO enlargement. Now Riga will not, as summit, which will be decisive or during which decisions will be made on NATO enlargement. It's too early for that. That will not happen. But I know that those nations aspiring to become a NATO member in their different stages will expect a signal from the allies in Riga, and I also know that the allies are discussing if they want to give a signal and if the answer is yes, and I think the answer will be yes, what kind of signal that will be. So here again we are in the early stages of the discussion, so you may give it a try to ask me for details, what does it mean for A, B, C, or D or E. This is a discussion which is starting now in Sofia. It is clear, as you know, that NATO's door is open, that NATO supports reforms. We had yesterday a meeting at ambassadorial level of the NATO-Ukraine Commission. Tomorrow or the day after we'll have the NATO-Russia Council. I had a phone call with the Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov this morning to prepare the ministerial NRC we’ll have. But this is, as far as the aspirants are concerned, I think the important beginning of a discussion. Will there be a signal in Riga? I think yes. And what kind of signal that will be. And then my answer is, I don't know yet, because the discussion will have to start. Then of course, what we'll also discuss is something which is a bit a shared responsibility between NATO Defence Ministers and NATO Foreign Ministers and that is a NATO training initiative. NATO is good in training. NATO has a lot of experience in training. You know that at the moment--I'll come back to that in a moment--we are training the African Union military leadership in relationship with our activities for the African Union vis-à-vis Darfur. I think you can expect the start of a discussion on a NATO training initiative. On what regions that training initiative will focus is still not totally clear. Certainly the Middle East here comes into mind, where it's important to note that this will, of course, only be done in full consultation with our partners in the so-called Mediterranean Dialogue and the Istanbul Cooperation Initiative. In other words, with the Maghreb nations, Jordan , Israel and the nations of the Gulf. This is a two-way street. This is in full consultation with. It is not about imposing. What form that training initiative will exactly take I have to say again this is the start of the discussion, but I think you can be assured that NATO at Riga will... you'll see at Riga the Allied Heads of State and Government taking initiative in this direction. That is more or less the agenda of the first working session of NATO Ministers. Then Thursday evening there is the transatlantic dinner, as you all know. That is not a dinner where institutions meet. It is an informal dinner where the European Union and NATO Foreign Ministers will meet. The host will be the Bulgarian Foreign Minister, as the Belgian Foreign Minister was our host in Brussels, and as Secretary Rice was the host at the luncheon in New York last September. So I can't tell you what subject will come up there, but I think I'm not far off the mark if I say that the Middle East might be discussed there, Iran might come up there. We might discuss, because of EU and NATO, Afghanistan; Kosovo might be discussed. Again here, it would not surprise me if those subjects would be discussed at the transatlantic dinner. But I say again, this is an informal gathering. This is not the EU as an institution talking to NATO as an institution. It is... throw it into the bin please. It is the Ministers, Foreign Ministers and then Javier Solana and myself being present at that dinner. Then the next morning, Friday morning, there will be a second working session of the allied ministers, where they'll discuss the political aspects of our operations and missions. And of course, I'll start with Afghanistan. You know that we are in the process of enlarging, expanding ISAF to what we call Stage 3, which is the southern part of the country. The pre-deployment is well under way. Ministers will certainly look at the political aspects of the operation. It's important in Afghanistan, that's what I will say anyway, that NATO and ISAF will create, and that is a complicated thing, as you know, in the less benign, more volatile, more dangerous southern part of the country, ISAF will create the climate of security and stability in which the support for the Afghan government and in which the building of that nation can take place. Of course, together with the first responsible, which is the Afghan government. As I said pre-deployment is well under way now. Of course, you read and I read, and we read about the complex security environment. It is a volatile environment. It is a mission which is certainly a dangerous missions. But you may also rest assured that ISAF and the allies going into the south will do that on the basis of robust rules of engagement. They'll do that on the basis of robust means at their disposal and any spoilers of the process of nation-building in Afghanistan must rest assured that the ISAF force will be able to react and to act if that is necessary, although, as you also know, there are two distinct mandates. One, ISAF and one Operation Enduring Freedom. And you also know that we have a system to de-conflict those two missions. But let me be very, very clear to you, our troops will carry out this mission robustly. Afghanistan will be discussed. What the Ministers will also discuss without any doubt is the NATO operation in Kosovo. Status talks are going on at the moment. KFOR is there KFOR is there to stay during this important process of determining the future status of the province. North Atlantic Council, by the way, will visit Kosovo soon. The Balkans, more in general, will be discussed, but that will also be a subject on the first day because of the three nations in the Balkans having Membership Action Plan and that relates to my first remark. Darfur will also be a subject. Again, I don't exclude that it will come up at the transatlantic dinner on the Thursday evening, but NATO has, as you know, a role to play. You know the North Atlantic Council agreed shortly before Easter, to stand ready to extend the support to the African Union till the end of September if the African Union would put in a request to do so. I've spoken to Kofi Annan last week, who was happy with the NATO position, to extending the current mission. I have on my wish list, on my list to do things a telephone call with President Konaré, the president of the African Union Commission, to communicate to him the NATO decision-making process. But NATO stands ready to extend our support. NATO also stands ready, as you know, and that is also within the framework of the decision-making shortly before Easter to amend the current strategic mission order, as we call the foundation of our operation, of our mission there, to include the capacity building for a joint operation centre, to certificate units before they go into Darfur and do things in the framework of lessons learned, to avoid misunderstandings. We are not talking, we did not talk and we are not talking about a NATO force on the ground in Darfur, and we are talking about the consent of the African Union and if it comes to a transfer of the African Union mission to the United Nations, of course, also the consent of the UN, but I can tell you that Secretary General Annan, at least, was happy with the news I could bring him. You know that two weeks before he phoned me in asking what NATO could do in continuing assisting the African Union mission in Darfur and possibly also assisting a possible UN mission in Darfur. That's where we are. That as far as the second working session is concerned, you know that after that working breakfast on Friday morning we'll have a meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission. It goes without saying that Minister Boris Tarasyuk, who will be there, will brief us and inform us about recent political developments in Ukraine , and of course the future. What I expect is a continuation of the good relations with a new coalition when that comes about. We're doing well with Ukraine in the framework of the intensified dialogue and we'll certainly also welcome discussions on Ukrainian contributions to NATO operations and then more specifically I can mention ISAF in Afghanistan and possibly Operation Active Endeavour, the naval operation in the Mediterranean. Then we'll have the NATO-Russia Council, where I expect a good political discussion. What I expect as subjects to come up there are the Balkans, Afghanistan will have, as you might know, the counternarcotics project, together with the Russians. I do not exclude that the CFE Treaty, the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty will come up. I'm sure that Belarus might be a point of discussion for the NATO-Russian Council. Mentioning the NATO-Russia Council let me say that the allies welcome, and I do welcome, the recent agreement that Russia has agreed upon with Georgia on the Russian bases in Georgia . So I think the NATO-Russia Council also has a lot of flesh on the bone. And mentioning Russia , I should also mention, finally, that it's not for Riga , but after Riga , a big NATO-Russia rally we have in Russia from Vladivostok to Kaliningrad where Russian and NATO officials will discuss and explain the works of the NATO-Russia Council. That is it, briefly, but not too briefly, as far as the Sofia agenda is concerned. I'm ready and open for your questions. APPATHURAI: Let's start right here and then... Q: (inaudible)... Radio Liberty, Ukrainian Service. I would like to ask you about Ukraine. After having the democratic elections can Ukraine expect that we will join the Membership Action Plan already in Sofia or in Riga? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: I have to answer you what I always answer when I get questions on timing. I can't tell you. Because this process is performance-based, so I can't possibly tell you. I agree with you that in the end this is a political decision to be taken by allies, but I can't give you, at this very moment, timelines and moments. And I stick to what I said in my introductory remarks on the Riga Summit and the signal. APPATHURAI: Let's stick on this side for a second. Paul and then back there, and then... Q: Paul Ames, Associated Press. Secretary General, listening to diplomats from various delegations in the past couple of days, there seems to be quite a big difference between them amongst how they see NATO's involvement in Darfur developing. Some countries seem to be looking for a much more robust involvement than others. Where do you see that debate going? Do you see, although you've talked a lot about not having boots on the ground, do you see at least NATO advisors embedded, trainers, people facilitating transport within Darfur, that sort of service being provided by NATO on the ground in Sudan? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, I think we could not exclude that last element, but let me add immediately that that of course depends on what the market can bear. And when I say what the market can bear, I mean what I said about the African Union and the United Nations. As you say, and as I repeat, not a NATO force on the ground. That's crystal clear. On the other hand, we have built up a relationship of trust with the African Union in doing what we are doing. You know, and there I can, I think, say that I do not agree with you that there are huge differences of opinion on what NATO could do or would be able to do in Darfur. I agree we had an interesting discussion proceeding Easter on the basis of Kofi Annan's phone call with me and his request. It is important to note that NATO is ready and willing, and I think, able, to do what NATO might be able to do. The political environment, as you know as well as I do, is complex. I'm in the process, as I told you, and that's why I mentioned my hope that I can get in touch with President Konaré soon, to see how the African Union sees things here. I do not exclude the possibility, but we have to check that against what the market can bear. Q: (inaudible)... APPATHURAI: There's no microphone. Q: Can you give us perhaps an idea about the Swedish concern in training mission in Darfur? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: You mean, up till now. Q: Up till now and what is perhaps proceeding? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well let me first, again, start by saying that in principal the training mission ended for the African Union, ended... what was it James, the 30... APPATHURAI: The training mission ended 31st of March. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Thirty-first of March, I think. I think. APPATHURAI: Airlift ends 31st of May. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Airlift May. On the basis of the decision-making of the Council before Easter, we can offer the African Union, as I've told Annan, but not yet Konaré, we can offer the African Union to continue with the training mission until the end of September, with the consent of the African Union of course. We don't do that against their will. So I can't possibly tell you how many that will exactly involve. And I must say... I must say, I cannot tell you exactly how many people we trained. Quite a few. We had a so-called MAPEX in the UN framework, together with the African Union. But this still waits my contact with Konaré and the way the African Union is going to react to the NATO offer. APPATHURAI: Let's go down this way. Here and then just work down. Q: Alexander (inaudible), for Russian Press. Secretary General, every time when NATO began to talk about a new round of enlargement it gave something to Russia and two times... two times it was really so. And do you consider what steps can be done by NATO when the next round of enlargement will be discussed to ease the stance... the direction of Russia. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: You mean another present. UNIDENTIFIED: What's your price tag? Q: For next time. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: All jokes apart, I'm not aware that up till now NATO enlargement has been evolving on a quid pro quo basis. But I'll immediately add that these discussions about possible NATO enlargement, and I say again, Riga is not an enlargement summit, are being held in the framework of a strengthening partnership with the Russian Federation . But that does not mean that there is a quid pro quo. And that does not mean that anybody else than the 26 NATO allies will make the final decision on enlargement. But realizing that this is a subject which is... which is of interest to our Russian friends and of interest to Moscow, it is crystal clear that besides the discussion on enlargement you need a robust strong partnership with the Russian Federation. But I should not create the... we should not create the misunderstanding that there would be a sort of quid pro quo or that there would be decision-making anywhere else in the North Atlantic Council between the 26 Allies. But having said that, I repeat, I value highly a strong partnership with the Russian Federation. It goes without saying. APPATHURAI: We were here, then there. Q: National News Agency of Ukraine, (inaudible)... Secretary General, do you expect ministers will discuss the Georgian aspiration to join NATO? And what impact on this aspiration could have internal conflict in Georgia? Thank you. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: If I mention in my introductory remarks the nations aspiring for NATO membership, Georgia , of course, is included. But the rest of my answer is the same as I gave before. I cannot possibly, because I would pre-empt a discussion. I cannot possibly say what that would mean in concrete terms or dates for Ukraine or for Georgia, for that matter, as I cannot tell you what it exactly means for our three MAP friends in the Balkans. But it is clear, as I said, that the aspirants expect a signal, and let me repeat what I said before, it is also clear that that... I think, Riga will give a signal. The content and the nature of that signal it's much too early to say. Because we're only starting this discussion now between ministers in Sofia . APPATHURAI: Balkans. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: We go back to the Balkans. Q: Yeah, well, some of us countries do no consider themselves Balkans. (LAUGHTER) Q: On Member Action Plan countries, they expect a signal and they are saying clearly what signal they would like to see, and it's that in Riga you mention in declaration that in the next summit in 2008 they will be invited to join NATO. Is this one of the options that NATO members are looking at? And the next question is on Kosovo. Is NATO starting to discuss new arrangements for the presence in Kosovo after the status? Thank you. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: On your first question I can say, and you'll have to trust me, that I'm very much aware of the aspirations of the nations you mentioned, and I'm also very much aware of the signal they would like to see the allies giving. But I'm not going to pre-empt, and you'll have understanding for that as well, I'm not going to pre-empt a ministerial discussion, which I'll chair, but it's of course as always in NATO a matter of trying to build a consensus. I can, unfortunately, not be more specific. The only thing I can say is that the Riga Summit is not a summit where decisions on enlargement will be made. We start this discussion now about the signals. You know that it might well be, although no formal decision has been taken, that NATO will have another summit in the spring of 2008. What that summit will bring it's really too early to say, but let there be full confidence in Skopje, in Tirana and in Zagreb that I'm fully aware of the signals. They are giving. Kosovo. The NAC will visit Kosovo soon. When is it, James? APPATHURAI: Two weeks. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: In two weeks time. I'm in regular touch with... of course, and we are in regular touch with Martti Ahtisaari, Soren Jessen Petersen and the other interlocutors as far as the status talks on Kosovo are concerned. And that means that they call the shots at the moment, but it also means, as we see the EU, European Union doing as well, that of course NATO is beginning to think about what would happen, what might happen, what could happen after the finishing, I should say, of the status talks, but I can't go into detail here. But it is clear that that is a process we'll have to start soon. But they call the shots, and not we. KFOR is there, 17,000 strong, and KFOR will stay there, and KFOR will stay the course to create the security and stability climate all the people need in Kosovo. Q: (inaudible)... Latvian Press. Secretary General, we don't ask you to pre-empt discussions, but maybe you could enlighten us on what will be your proposals for Foreign Ministers, for the signal to be given in Riga, to enlargement countries. And second question... DE HOOP SCHEFFER: That's a good (inaudible). Q: ...in Sofia, you will have Russian and Ukrainian councils. Is it the same format in Riga, which means, inviting Mr. Yushchenko and Mr. Putin? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: I commend you for your intelligence in trying to phrase a question differently which I have already answered. One, I'm chairing the meeting. I have my personal opinions, but my personal opinions I discuss with my wife under a good glass of wine after finishing business. All jokes apart, I can't possibly tell you, because we are starting this discussion now on the Foreign Ministers level. It will certainly come back in Riga and I have not much to add. On the second part of your question, it is my expectation that the Riga Summit will be a summit of 26, so that there will be in Riga no other meetings then the meeting of the NATO Heads of State and Government. Q: M. le Secrétaire générale, Léon Bruneau Agence France-Presse. Vous avez dit de façon diplomatique que l'Iran pourrait être un des sujets du débat au dîner transatlantique, c'est évidemment en terme de sécurité, peut-être même la question la plus fondamentale actuellement. Donc je sais bien que l'OTAN n'est pas directement concerné par ça mais, qu'elle est pour vous...quel pourrait être la teneur de cette discussion. Est-ce que Sofia peut être une occasion pour les membres de l'OTAN mais aussi la Russie vue qu'elle sera la vendredi, de forger une position commune ? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Alors, le dernier je ne sais pas vraiment, j'ai dit qu’il est bien possible qu'un ministre ou plusieurs ministres... pendant le dîner transatlantique vont...voudraient bien discuter l'Iran. On a après tout les trois de l'Union Européenne.... on a les États-Unis, on a alors les quatre ensemble pendant le dîner. Je pourrais ajouter que... pour éviter des mé-communications que je considère l'Iran dans la façon politique, un sujet qui est relevant pour l'OTAN, je le répète mais, je dis en même temps que l'OTAN comme vous le savez ne joue pas le premier violon. C'est bien sur, ce sont les trois de l'Union Européenne, bien sur les Etats-Unis, Conseil de sécurité, la fédération Russe inclus. Alors, je ne peu pas exclure que ce sera un thème. J'ai dit, j'ai mentionné le dîner transatlantique parce que on a les ministres de L'OTAN et de l'union Européenne ensemble pendant le dîner. Mais, je n'exclus pas qu'un ministre pourrait évoquer le sujet de l'Iran pendant les réunions des 26, mais je ne sais pas. Q: (inaudible)El Pais... Could you elaborate, please, General Secretary, about this idea of bringing Australia and New Zealand , Japan , Korea , as you said, bringing them to the fold? What do you have in mind when you are thinking about it, bringing them to the fold? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, I phrase that, of course, diplomatically, on purpose, for the simple reason, and that goes for this meeting, of course, it's an informal meeting and it is the first time that these elements are discussed at the political level, by ministers. I've given you my arguments. They are arguments related to NATO's operations and missions. Let me be a bit more specific. As you know, on Afghanistan , we have regular meetings with the Council in ISAF format. What does ISAF format mean? As you know, that the non-NATO members who are contributing to the ISAF operation are there as equal partners. And soon, after the further enlargement of ISAF, we'll see Australia sitting there around the table. If the Bamyan PRT of New Zealand will be transferred to ISAF, New Zealand will. So you'll have, let's say, one of the elements is to build this around NATO's operations and missions, but you also know that nations like Japan and South Korea do not participate in NATO's operations and missions. They are, on the other hand, politically relevant, and that's why I say 21st Century questions, 21st Century answers. When you are in Afghanistan as NATO you have to pay attention to your relationship with Pakistan. You have to pay attention to your relationship with India. You're not operating in a vacuum, or in a void, and that is the reason, I'm sorry, I can't be more specific, and that's why I said bringing them into the fold, because I have not a specific structure in mind to do that. One very complete structure is building it around NATO's operations and missions, but how exactly you're going to develop this political dialogue is of course another matter. If you do that in a structured way, if you do that on an ad hoc basis, but I say again, this is not to be defensive here, but this is simply because we are only starting this discussion. APPATHURAI: Nick. No no no. Q: Nick Fiorenza, Jane's. Are ministers likely in Sofia to discuss, or even decide on the Georgian request for an intensified dialogue, and how do you react to Georgian arguments that if it is not accepted into NATO in 2008 the reforms in the country will be jeopardized? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, the answer to the first part of your question is the same I have already given. When I say that in the framework of the discussion in the preparation for Riga , in the framework of the discussion about the signal it concerns, without any doubt all aspiring nations. Georgia is one of them. But I can't go any further and give you further details. This is, of course, a highly political debate. APPATHURAI: Georgia empties the room. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: And Georgia empties the room. That is unfair to the Georgians. (LAUGHTER) DE HOOP SCHEFFER: I know, it's a term... I'll tell President Saakashvili that many people leave the room (inaudible). On the other... on the other part of your question, we have a good discussion with Georgia and very recently three Georgian ministers were here. Foreign Affairs, Defence and the Minister responsible for Integration, Baramidze. And we'll have... we have a good discussion with the Georgians and I'm not going to speculate about the ifs and the whens and what have you. Okay. Q: Thank you very much, Mac Yousef(?) from the Egyptian Television. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Ah yes. Q: Secretary General, you said that Middle East and Iran might come out in the dinner Thursday. We can understand if the European Foreign Affair Ministers are discussing Iran and Middle East which topic they are going to talk about, but here as you insist it is NATO meeting, which topic you are going to talk about and what is it that we might expect to come out from this discussion? Thank you. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Thank you and welcome again. Let's make the distinction between the NATO meeting and the transatlantic dinner. The transatlantic dinner is not a NATO meeting. The transatlantic dinner is an informal gathering, as I said, as you know, of EU and NATO Foreign Ministers. The NATO Foreign Ministers, and you and I spoke about that as well, last December, had a very interesting discussion on the Middle East, on several elements of that pivotal region. It's... it might come up, the theme, in the NATO meeting again. When I got the question about Iran or I said about Iran, that given the fact that the EU 3 and Secretary Rice are sitting in the same room in that transatlantic dinner, which has nothing to do with NATO, and formally, I cannot even speak about the dinner as NATO Secretary General because there is no agenda, and I don't decide about the agenda, it is my personal view that I don't exclude that it will come up there because of the company sitting around the table. I do not exclude on the other hand that our relations with the Middle East, our Mediterranean Dialogue, the ICI initiative, the Middle East in general will come up in the NATO meetings as well. This is an informal meeting. So I simply do not know which Minister is going to raise what subject in those meetings, but I mean it's an informal meeting. We have no formal agenda. And given the fact that we, together with our Mediterranean partners, have given rather much prominence over the past week to the Mediterranean Dialogue, given the fact that I mentioned the training initiative upon which we'll have full consultation with our Mediterranean Dialogue and ICI partners, I do not exclude that this will come up. APPATHURAI: I think we're pretty much out of time, but I have... you're next Mark. Q: Mark John from Reuters. We saw the debate in the Netherlands about the southern expansion of ISAF in Afghanistan and there's evidence of nerves elsewhere, and I wanted to ask you do you think that European public opinion has been adequately prepared for the very real risk of casualties? DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Well, my answer to your question is, if you mention my own nation, my own country, the Netherlands, my home country, the answer is certainly yes, because that was a very fundamental debate. There were fundamental debates in other nations as well. We saw Canada losing four soldiers over the weekend. It is a dangerous mission. But NATO cannot afford to fail, and I say again, ISAF goes in with robust means on the basis of robust rules of engagement and spoilers should know that if they try to spoil the ISAF mandate ISAF will act. ISAF will act on the basis of those robust rules of engagement. So if you ask me about public opinion I say yes. Will it become difficult? Yes. Might there be difficult discussions with public opinion? Oh certainly. But I think that the NATO governments of those allies and nations who are participating in ISAF are fully aware of this, that they'll stand firm and that they'll be in a position to see that their public opinion will stand firm as well. It is a dangerous mission and we have seen fatalities and I'm the first one to recognize this. On the other hand, let's not forget what the basics of this mission are. The basics of this mission are two and not one. One is to support the Afghan government and more importantly, the Afghan people, to give them the opportunity to take the range of their country into their own hands. But there's a second one, which is as important, and that is that this operation, of course, is also to prevent and therefore you need nation-building, that Afghanistan will become the black hole again it was before the Taliban was chased out of the country--an exporter of terrorism. So there are also these elements, which we'll have to recognize, but to answer your question very briefly, yes, I think public opinion has been sufficiently prepared. Will it be difficult from time to time? Yes, it will be difficult. It will be dangerous. There will be, I'm afraid, more incidents. I hope not, but realism demands that there will be more incidents, there will be more casualties, but NATO will stand firm and will have to stand firm. APPATHURAI: I think we stop there. DE HOOP SCHEFFER: Okay. APPATHURAI: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your time.