NATO HQ

15 June 2007

Joint press point

by NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer and the Afghan Minister of Defence Abdul Rahim Wardak
after the meeting of the North Atlantic Council with non-NATO ISAF contributors in Defence Ministers session

JAMES APPATHURAI (NATO Spokesman):  Thank you for coming with us, Ladies and Gentlemen.  The Secretary General and Minister Wardak will each make brief opening statements and we'll have time for questions.

JAAP DE HOOP SCHEFFER (NATO Secretary General):  Very good afternoon to you.  And let me start by welcoming a colleague and friend Mr. Wardak to NATO Headquarters.  As you know, we just had a meeting with him and the 37 countries in ISAF.  And this is the community of nations that is standing shoulder to shoulder with the Afghan people to help them build their democracy I would say at peace with itself and with the world.  And that is of course the key of the ISAF mission, that is to create the conditions for nation-building and development. 

I think we have achieved a lot since this mission began.  Afghanistan has made huge strides in education, health, institution building.  And let's not forget, ISAF has gone to 10,000 personnel to 40,000 as we speak or close to 40,000.  And the number of provincial reconstruction teams has gone up from nine to 25 with more to come.  In other words, we have together, I think, come a long way. 

But we need to do more.  More to train and equip the Afghan National Army so the Afghan National Army can do what all armies do, be responsible itself.  We now have about 30 plus mobile training teams working with them.  But I think we are not there yet as far as this part of our assistance is concerned.  We do need more training teams to keep up the pace or to be faster I should say to increase the speed with which we can help the Afghan National Army with training.  So there I'm not yet satisfied although many nations have in recent days and weeks come forward with extra training teams.  But again, I'm not yet, I'm not yet satisfied. 

We need, although we have made progress here as well, but we need, I think, still more integrated comprehensive civilian-military approach.  We're very happy, by the way, with the European Union sending more police trainers to Afghanistan.  But as you know my mantra we need the full commitment of the international community be it the European Union, the UN, the G8 and a major donors.  And of course, we need to maintain the strong support of the Afghan people for our operations on their behalf, which is also what we discuss today:  the issue of civilian casualties. 

And Allies, I can tell you, agree on a number of points.  First put the blame where it lies:  Taliban and other spoilers are using the most brutal violence to try to overthrow a democratic government.  And they're using civilians as shields.  Let me repeat what I said a few weeks ago.  We are not...simply not in the same moral category yet.  We are defending that democracy in Afghanistan and its development under a UN mandate.  So no relativism in this regard. 

But unfortunately, I say unfortunately and I should say dramatically civilians have sometimes been caught up in the fighting.  And I think today again we discussed measures to help us to do better.  And that is considerably and permanently looking at our procedures. I'm in close touch with the military commanders in that regard: the rules of engagement and... their correct and strict application. 

We examined proposals by General Craddock, the Supreme Allied Commander where coordination can be improved with the Coalition Forces.  It will... it will be done.  Investigations after incidents.  I look at Minister Wardak because, of course, first of all the Afghan government has a responsibility there.  But we have as well, be it ISAF, be it OEF:  investigations after incidents, investigations that are timely and that produce conclusions in public. 

And finally, and several nations are interested.  And I think more nations should be interested in what we call post-humanitarian relief funds.  That is to help families and to help communities recover after they have been affected by our operation. 

But I say once again.  ISAF, NATO ISAF does not indiscriminately kill people.  That's what the Taliban does, roadside bombs, suicide bombers.  They make by far the most innocent civilian casualties in Afghanistan.  We do everything to prevent that from happening.  And I'm giving you the elements.  It does happen dramatically and unfortunately.  But we'll do everything to prevent it.  And I know that Minister Wardak and I are singing from the same sheet here. 

But on Afghanistan, the bottom-line is this:  37 NATO ISAF countries will stay the course.  And I think that Minister Wardak got a clear message a moment ago that for all of us Afghanistan is really that long-term commitment. 

Minister Wardak, if you permit, and to save time, I'll mention three operational issues from last night dinner the 26 NATO ministers had.  On Kosovo which was discussed, you know the NATO position; we support the speedy acceptance of the United Nations Security Council resolution based on the proposals made by Martti Ahtisaari.

And NATO defence ministers again reconfirmed that they are very determined that KFOR will do what is necessary to keep the peace and stability.  And we reviewed the capabilities and proceedings in place.  We are satisfied that we have what we need to do the job.  And I say again, let nobody who might thinking of resorting to violence during this very sensitive period, let nobody have the illusion that they would not be met by a stiff response.  It is essential that everybody in Kosovo stays calm. 

To other points finally, Allies have agreed... because we have discussed Afghanistan of course yesterday as well, not to prepare the meeting with Minister Wardak but between the 26.  But yesterday and before, Allies have agreed to request from the African Union to help them airlift troops in support of their mission in Somalia.  We stand ready to help as we are helping already from quite some time through airlifts; the same in Darfur.  So its aim is in Darfur and some in Somalia.

Second, upon request of course, but the general request has reached us.  And the North Atlantic Council has said yes.  Secondly, we have agreed to a request from the Iraqi government to provide what we call "gendarmerie" training which will complement the military training  we already provide. 

So overall, I think a lot of business was done here today and yesterday on taking forward NATO operations and missions. High time to ask my colleague and friend Minister Wardak to take a photo.   (PHOTO)

ABDUL RAHIM WARDAK (Minister of Defence, Afghanistan):  Thank you very much Secretary General.  On behalf of my government and my people, I would like to express our deepest appreciation and profound gratitude to NATO organization and also for your exemplary leadership and unwavering support to help Afghanistan.

I also thank every NATO member and ISAF member for their help, support, assistance in cooperation and their great contribution to the peace and stability of my war-torn country. We are greatly indebted to them all. 

With your support and help... actually Afghanistan has been delivered from the ashes of destruction tied to decades of civil war.  And now we have a hope for bright future and a prosperous future. 

Today, we had a very constructive and positive meeting.  We have discussed the security situation and we have concluded that tides are turning in our favour.  Talibans have suffered heavy casualties, in ranks and file and also in their different level of leadership.  They have not been able to expand their area of influence.  They have not been able to block the highway, isolate Kabul.  Actually... and also they have failed to materialize the so-called strength offensive.  We have taken an initiative.  And they are on the defensive.  And we do hope that there will more positive improvement of the security situation in Afghanistan as the time passes. 

Today, also we have repeatedly talked about all this sustainable way to secure Afghanistan as... to enable the Afghans themselves to defend and secure Afghanistan.  I think that concept is accepted by the organization.  And we hope that in the near future, once we are better trained and better equipped, I think we will be able to take on the physical security of ourselves.  And NATO will take on supporting and mentoring groups.

We actually do not want to be a burden, permanently, on the international community.  We would like to stand on our own feet.  And we are working very hard toward that direction.  And we believe firmly that our giant efforts, our giant endeavour will be victorious and successful.  And one day we will all be proud that we have delivered the nation from the ashes of destruction and made it like a phoenix to rise once again and flies over the mountainous skies of Afghanistan.  Thank you, Mister Secretary General.

APPATHURAI:  Questions.  Start there.

MARK JOHN (Reuters): Mark John from Reuters.  Secretary General, could you give us some quantity on the shortfall issue of the ISAF force in Afghanistan.  We hear from some US officials that could be shortfalls of figures of 3,000.  I mentioned sometimes it's put beside the battalions, three or four battalions.  What is the NATO military assessment of the shortfall of the ISAF force in the moment?  And how much does that meeting go to meeting any shortfall?

DE HOOP SCHEFFER:  I introduced the topic.  There was force generation conference last Tuesday at SHAPE which provided some extras in this field of these OMLTs, these Operational Mentor and Liaison Teams and all the elements as well.  There  are still shortfalls in the combined joint statement of requirement.  As you know, the CJ soared on NATO speak.  But we have gone up as I've said many times, considerably between Riga and now.  What the exact forces are at the moment I can't tell you.  But there are certainly still shortfalls as far rotary wing helicopters are concerned.  Although our American friends and Allies - that was also part of this meeting - have been very generous in keeping a substantial helicopter force in the South of Afghanistan for another period.

So if you are talking about shortfalls, this is I think one of the more important ones:  rotary wing.  Some fixed wing as well.  And let me mention another element:  I think that if you or I would ask ISAF he would profit as well from more manoeuvre forces.  But we've also seen nations stepping in, like Denmark and others.  So as I said we are now close to 40,000 or even 40,000 plus in comparison to the 30,000 we had in the time of Riga. 

So also as far as boots on the ground are concerned we are doing better than we did.  I've seen times also on my watch that I really saw big problems. We are not there yet.  We are not there yet. 

In the air, we rely too much on the solidarity of our American Allies.  On the ground, we are doing better.  But you'll never a Secretary General in front of you who will tell you in answering such a question:  "We are fine."  Always a need,  and for nations to fulfill what they have decided upon military advice what is necessary in Afghanistan.  But we're doing a lot better than we did. 

KAI NIKLASH (German Television):  Kai Niklasch from German Television.  Secretary General, you've said...  Defence Minister of Afghanistan, you've said that you and the Talibans are not in the same moral category.  But have there been any attempts to negotiate with them any the less in the past, or are there any chance to speak with anybody in the nearest future?

DE HOOP SCHEFFER:  That's a question without any doubt for the minister since I'm not an Afghan.

WARDAK:  There is no doubt that real Taliban, hardcore Taliban are definitely not in the same moral category.  There is no regard for the human life.  There is complete disregard for the killing and torturing of the innocent people.  And also they don't have much of a regard for our religious beliefs.  So on that category there is a part of Taliban which they have committed a lot of atrocities in the past.  So they cannot be included in that category.  But there are some other Talibans or some... or even not Taliban but out of ignorance and poverty and other reasons, I think from time to time they join Taliban.  Those categories are definitely, I think my president has expressed many times that they can come back to Afghanistan, they can have a normal living and if they have any desire for power, now we are a democratic country.  And they can participate in the political process.  And that door is open for that category of Talibans. 

MARTINEZ DE RITUERTO : Martinez de Rituerto, El Pais in Spain.  A question in relation with Pakistan and Iran for Minister Wardak.  How is the flux of people going through the border going now?  Do you feel that... there are... the Pakistanis are doing as much as they could or they should in controlling the flux of people coming from South of the border to... into Afghanistan.  And the regime with Iran, the Americans are adamant that there are some people helping the Taliban from Iran.  Do you have any proof of that?  Thank you. 

WARDAK:  With regarding with Pakistan I would say that recently also with the help of NATO and the rest of the international community and our cooperation with Afghanistan has improved.  And we are trying to have much... more coordination with them as for the borders are concerned.  And this cooperation is in its initial phases.  But we do hope that giant cooperation of ISAF, Pakistan and Afghanistan will bear fruits.  And I think that we will be more able I mean to entrap the flow of terrorists.  I should also say it's a very difficult terrain and a very long border that absolutely I think will be very difficult. 

But more cooperation, more coordination will bear fruits and I think we will be able to... to interdict the influx of terrorists back and forth considerably.  

And Iranian question that there is definitely recently evidences that there has been some weapons and other supplies coming from that side of the border.  But it has been not identified that it is the drug mafia, it is the al-Qaeda or there are some other elements.  But to... coming and go for equipment is absolutely correct that it's coming from outside.  But we've always had very good relation with Iran.  They have helped in our reconstruction. And we do believe that stability and peace and prosperity in Afghanistan is in the interest of the Iran and also the whole region.

Augustin Palokaj (Koha Ditore) :  I'm struggling to ask a question without starting with if... for Secretary General. 

DE HOOP SCHEFFER: You are in the learning curve.

AUGUSTIN PALOKAJ:  You said that NATO supports a speedy acceptance of the resolution and also Ahtisaari's proposal.  Do you think that there is a need then for the new negotiations between the parties, between Priština and Belgrade?  And do you think that if there is not speedy acceptance of resolution, NATO countries will be divided on issue of recognition of Kosovo's independence?

DE HOOP SCHEFFER:  I don't know about the success of your learning curve.  But let me try to answer the question.

As far as the first part is concerned, that process, of course, is not in NATO's hand.  That process is in the hands of the UN Security Council.  And those talks and negotiations are going on.  There is no Security Council resolution yet.  And NATO doesn't decided and the NATO Allies do not decide when that resolution will be... if and when that resolution will be accepted.

In the meantime, KFOR has to do its job.  KFOR is there on the base of 1244.  And KFOR has to do a job.  And KFOR is doing its job.  And what is the trouble of KFOR that is to see that all over Kosovo there is an atmosphere and a climate of security and security.  And that nobody,  I say again, coming from the majority or the minority should think that they could exert pressure on the process by resorting to violence.  Because they'll be met by... by UNMIK police, by the Kosovo police, by UNMIK police and if necessarily also by KFOR. 

What I said yesterday and what I repeat today is that KFOR of course has a very important responsibility and that the Allies who have on more than one occasion supported the Ahtisaari proposals of course sincerely hope that as soon as possible there will be a Security Council resolution based on the Ahtisaari proposal.  But that is as far I can get because I do not want to enter the process which is in the hands of others. 

APPATHURAI:  (INAUDIBLE)

ROB OLSEN (BBC):   Rob Olsen from the BBC.  Question for the minister.  I wonder that if... as the result of anything that you've heard today at NATO, do you think that there may be less civilian casualties.  And what do you think... does anything that NATO Operation Enduring Freedom could be doing what they are not doing already, which would lessen the chance of civilian casualties?

WARDAK:  Actually, I think both - Afghan government and NATO Coalition - they're very sensitive to this question.  I think everybody would try to avoid civilian casualties and collateral damage.  Actually, it has been in the strategy of Talibans from the beginning of the year I mean to... to do things to instigate the feeling of the national and religious feeling of the public against the government and also the international community.  And that's why as the Secretary General mentioned I think they are using civilians as hostages and also as a shield.  But recently I think we... there were procedures already.  There were enough coordination between international forces and the Afghan forces.  And recently we have tried, I mean to review all the procedures once again and to exercise maximum caution as far as the civilian casualties are concerned.  In fact, by the Afghan government, I have been appointed the head of a commission I mean to look into this issue.  So we are in close coordination now with ISAF and also with the Coalition to take all of the preventive measures to minimize civilian casualties.  But sometime in the war it is always difficult.  That has happened to me, myself, I think, when I was fighting the Soviets, that I have captured for example a Soviet MBR (?) although I didn't know the range and I thought it would go farther, it fell down on my force.  So there are things which are inevitable.  But we will do everything to prevent it and minimize civilian casualties and take all the necessary steps.  I think we have categorized the whole process into 4 different categories.  All the preparations with the troops which are going to take part needs to obtaining what they need.  We have addressed that issue and also the integration of planning to do what during the planning process and then what to do during the actual operation and then as the Secretary General mentioned that there should be also a review of the action jointly, actually, by the Afghans and also by the international community.  So we have set commissions to address that and also we're having building up coordination centres in provinces and also in the regions and also in the centres which there will be a full representation of every forces which are operating in the areas which will help in coordination.   So I think with all those measures we are definitely sure that we will be able to minimize the collateral damage and also the civilian casualties to its minimum. 

AFP : If I can just follow on from that with the Secretary General and for the Minister if you want to respond.  It sounds like you had some pretty good tactics procedures, rules of engagement in place in any case. And you maybe tweaked that a little bit, gone a little bit further.  Is it fair to say that those tactics, procedures etc are being poorly, badly implemented on the ground?

DE HOOP SCHEFFER:  No that's unfair to say because everybody.  And Minister Wardak just referred to it... everybody and literally everybody active in Afghanistan, be it the Coalition be it NATO-ISAF, be it first and foremost the Afghan government himself is very much aware that the bar is high.  For us the bar is high.  If I say that we're in a different whole category and the ministry acted, the bar is by definition high for an Afghan government which is a democratic government and for NATO-ISAF which is a family of democratic nations. So we cannot lower the bar.  But unfortunately, and I add dramatically, and Minister Wardak gave an example from his own past, it does happen in a war that you are confronted with innocent civilian casualties. 

And of course, what that part of the Talibans is doing as Mr. Wardak mentioned...  I mean they are off course trying to achieve that we're losing the hearts and minds of the Afghan people.  We are still supported by a large majority I find out every time I get there. 

But of course, they are waging this indirect war against us by exploiting civilians, by using them as human shields, by terrorizing them, by sending "night letters" , by burning schools, by beheading people.  And if then we, I say again dramatically see a military operation while we have civilian casualties of course the first reaction is of the fellow Afghan civilians is why this is necessary.  And then my answer will be "We will do everything we can to avoid it."  We had procedures, we have procedures.  And they are very, very careful procedures.  But it does happen, it does happen.  And our opponents are using this because they know this, they know about these press conferences.  They know that you'll critically ask to Minister Wardak or me "Can we avoid that today?"  No, we cannot avoid the drama of any innocent civilian life.  And any civilian life is one too many... is one too much.  So we'll do everything we can.  And the bar is high.  But let's not forget what kind of conflict, and what kind of war our soldiers are in from time to time.  Let me also show my solidarity with them on the ground in Afghanistan.  Be it the Afghan National Army; be it the Coalition, be it NATO-ISAF.  They are the ones who are literally with their boots on the ground and with the boots in the sand.  And it's very, very complicate.  We are doing everything we can to prevent it.