NATO HQ Brussels 4 May 2006

STOPWATCH 3 , Debate 3: NATO training programmes Special interactive video forum series with Jamie Shea Multimedia Audio file .MP3/15476 Video forum JAMIE SHEA (Director of Policy Planning): Well, ladies and gentlemen, once again, a warm welcome on a sunny day here in Brussels from NATO Headquarters. I'm Jamie Shea, and once again it's going to be my pleasure to moderate this edition of Stopwatch, the programme on the NATO website which every now and again introduces you to a current NATO topic. And once again I have today two special invited guests. More about the guests in just a moment. What is today's topic? Well, those of you who follow Stopwatch regularly will know, of course, that NATO today is a complicated organization. Twenty-six allies, virtually as many partners, and those partners now today extend into Central Asia , the Caucasus , Russia , Ukraine , the Mediterranean , the Middle East and beyond. So you can understand that if NATO is going to operate effectively we need intellectual interoperability as much as we need military and technical interoperability. By intellectual interoperability I mean the ability of NATO military commanders, NATO senior civilians, to understand each other, to have the same strategic culture, the same approach to complex multinational operations, the same belief in military transformation and defense reform. If people don't understand how NATO works, if people can't work together then NATO would find it extremely difficult to carry out its missions. So today's programme is about how we achieve this interoperability among people, and not simply between tanks and aircraft, and the answer is that we have two NATO educational institutions. One, which is in Oberammergau in Bavaria and which is currently led by my first guest today, Colonel Mark Sullivan, the Commandant of the SHAPE School Oberammergau, and the other in Rome , the NATO Defense College where the dean is Dr. Sam Grier, who is my second guest today. And I've invited the two of them to tell us a little bit about how their educational role fits into NATO's activities, and how that role has changed over the last few years. As you can imagine, being situated in Rome or in Oberammergau , they don't have any problems attracting a good supply of students. But beyond the physical attractiveness of the locations, what do these two schools actually do? Well, gents, so you've both, if not you personally in your roles, but at least your institutions have been around for a long time, since the early 1950s, almost as long as the Alliance . So Mark, first of all turning to you and looking at the SHAPE School in Oberammergau, what are you doing today which is more or less the same that you were doing in 1950, and what has really changed since the transformation of the Alliance after the Berlin Wall came down? COLONEL MARK SULLIVAN (Commandant, NATO School , SHAPE): Well, fundamentally what we're doing today that's the same as it's been for the last 53 years, is that we are there primarily to support the strategic commanders of NATO. Right now it ends up being, of course, Supreme Allied Commander Transformation General Smith, and Supreme Allied Commander in Europe , General Jones. What's changed really dramatically, particularly in the last 15 years, is how we do that. We've gone from a curriculum of 25 different courses and they're week-long courses that primarily function on functional... focus on functional areas; things like intelligence, operational planning, civil-military cooperation. We've grown that into about 80 courses this year. Additionally, if you look back in 1991, which General Smith, who was actually the former commandant of NATO School , in 1981(sic) he had about 2,500 students attending. We now have about 10,000 a year. SHEA: A big growth industry. SULLIVAN: A big growth industry. Importantly is that complexion. In 1991 he hosted the first Russians there. Now, of course, Russians are a normal feature of the school attending, but also all the partners, the Med Dialogue countries, many contact nations, and in addition to that we have Iraqis and Afghanis attending the school regularly as well. So I would say the big changes is we really had to broaden both the attendance, because NATO really hasn't conducted a NATO-only operation in the last 15 years. It's always been supported by partners and others, so we've had to open up the doors very wide, but we've also had to continue to refine the curriculum to meet the needs of the two strategic commanders. SHEA: Sam, turning to you, I suppose having heard Mark, people may wonder why do we have two schools in that case, so what does the NATO Defense College in Rome do and how would you say it differs in terms of Mark's activities at the SHAPE School of Oberammergau? DR. SAMUEL GRIER (Dean, NATO Defense College ): Well, the NATO Defense College was specifically created to prepare officers and senior officials for NATO or NATO-related multinational appointments. And the way we do that is through a five and a half month curriculum exposing them to a broad spectrum of NATO issues. I think what Mark's institution does - I don't want to speak for Mark - but he does short courses that are tailored very specifically on a particular topic, whereas as I said, in our course, we have a very broad spectrum of issues that are relevant to the Alliance either in the short term or even in the long term. So I would characterize that as probably the greatest differences between the two institutions. SHEA: Who are the students? I mean, are you looking at sort of very senior people who need some sort of refresher course before moving on to a new assignment, or are you really speaking rather like the Jesuits. It was famously said that they moulded people by getting hold of them at a very young age. Are you looking more at sort of junior officers, junior civil servants who are starting out on their careers... I mean, what's the sort of educational philosophy at the College? GRIER: Well, actually we're big on course members who are pretty well along in their careers, typically about 20 years in their professions. And we have an adult learning environment where we take advantage of the experiences and knowledge that they bring to the College, and then they share this with their fellow course members, specifically to develop this idea of human interoperability that you led off with. This idea of appreciating other cultures, understanding how other people think, these are very important skills that we think our course members need to have if they want to come to NATO and make a contribution soon after they arrive in their positions. SHEA: Mark, is today the emphasis still very much on forming the NATO community? In other words, students, even if they're senior people we can still call them students, from the 26 NATO countries in order to maintain cohesion in the Alliance itself, or is now, would you say, the emphasis is increasingly on the Partnership for Peace in terms of helping these countries with defense restructuring, defense reform, knowing how to operate with NATO, that kind of thing? I mean, where's the political emphasis now? SULLIVAN: Given the current emphasis on NATO Response Force and the ISAF missions and the NATO Training Mission in Iraq , currently we have to meet both, we have to meet both mandates really. It is a problem though because you can imagine, with limited resources, how do you prioritize those? So when it comes to NATO Response Force, which is our number one priority, that is a NATO issue, primarily. Now in the future, of course, both the highest levels... the highest military levels, the highest political levels in the Alliance may decide that goes a bit differently, but for now NATO Response Force is fundamentally a NATO programme. So that is our number one priority. SHEA: Could you tell us... because this is obviously a key issue, what exactly you do to assist the NATO Response Forces? Is it sort of technical education, or is it more looking at possible missions, the political situations in areas where the NATO Response Force might be engaged? SULLIVAN: It is primarily functional areas. That's where we do our education and training, and we do a bit of both. It just depends on the course. But let me give you an example because we had what we call the Operational Planning course, the OPP being conducted... actually it's finishing off this week at NATO School. The whole idea there is not necessarily that we're dealing with subjects or classified material that excludes the non-allies, the partners and the Mediterranean Dialogue. The problem is, is there's such a high demand for operational planners within the NRF Headquarters, the Operational Headquarters, that we simply can't meet the demand of others, so we exclude non-NATO nations from that particular course. In that particular course, to get to your question what we do, we teach them how to go through the operational planning process. Now we also instil this idea of effects-based approach to operations, which is still being developed within the Alliance . SHEA: Could you maybe explain effects-based to our audience who may not be so familiar with that term? SULLIVAN: Sure. Very fundamentally it's a matter of achieving the effect, the political effect, the strategic effects you want within the security situation that you're dealing with. And because of that military's only a very small part. We've discussed, I know here at NATO Headquarters you discuss all the time our integration with NGOs, non-governmental organizations, other international organizations, but also other organizations such as the United Nations etc. The whole idea is to bring a coordinated effort forward to address this issue. Diplomatic, military, economic, etc. SHEA: Thanks. Sam, is it fair then to say that you do sort of more general education about NATO's new roles and missions, whereas Oberammergau perhaps is more focused on preparing NATO for its upcoming operations. We know that NATO is doing quite a few operations around the globe these days. Afghanistan , of course, we mentioned that already, the Balkans. Would that be a fair summary of the division of labour (inaudible)... (SPEAKERS OVERLAP) GRIER: I think that is fair. I think Mark's point that the NRF is his number one priority, reflects the priority of the operational commands. For us it's not a number one priority. Mark, his stakeholders are the operational commands. Our stakeholders are the headquarters. And so for us then the NRF is important, but equally important are political transformation and the Alliance , the way it does its decision-making, and the other issues and challenges that face the Alliance as well. So it's just one aspect of our educational process, as you indicate, is our priority. Not training specifically for a particular task. SHEA: I'd like now to turn to this question, based on your experience, because you've obviously in your position seen several generations now probably of students coming through, what do you think are the greatest handicaps or the greatest educational needs? Is it sort of lack of knowledge of NATO, or inability to operate in English which is very much the working language here, although French is also an official language. Not being familiar, maybe, with NATO defense concepts if you come say from Central Asia or the Caucasus. You know, it'd be interesting to hear a little bit of where you see the requirements as we look to our future and where you thought that the two schools can really help NATO Headquarters to develop this sort of intellectual capacity that we need? GRIER: Well, our course members are about 80 percent military officers, 20 percent civilians. And the military officers I particular, they come to the College having come from a very operational background. And so they are not familiar with the broad spectrum of issues that NATO confronts on a daily basis. And so we expose them to those challenges. Also, at the College, we approach topics from the strategic political-military level, and it's a different way of thinking that they haven't done in the past. And so they've got to perceive issues in new ways. They've go tot think about issues in new ways. It's an opportunity for them to sit back and reflect and contemplate, perhaps something they haven't done in many years, which... since... well perhaps since they received their initial education. So in that regard... SHEA: It's sort of what, taking them out of a national context and getting them to sort of think multinational? Is that... (inaudible)... (SPEAKERS OVERLAP) GRIER: Well, actually that's a good point. I like... I have to confess that when I came to the NATO Defense College as a course member I saw the world through glasses that were red, white and blue, and it was a real change for me... SHEA: That's a sincere confession to make... GRIER: Yes, and actually my British course member colleague, he even told me I didn't speak the Queen's English, so these were all things that people who come from a national perspective get to experience and learn at the College. SHEA: Mark, how do you find it in terms of what the specific needs are of the individuals and particularly, you know, obviously countries that come from very far away from NATO, let's say Central Asia , or the Caucasus or the new Mediterranean partners? Obviously there must be a complete lack of familiarity and how long does it take to get people up to speed so that they really understand NATO? SULLIVAN: Well, the really understanding NATO, of course, is a difficult situation. We know... (SPEAKERS OVERLAP) SHEA: It's a complicated (inaudible)... SULLIVAN: Many of us have been in and out of the Alliance for 20 years. SHEA: It's a fair point. But it's still a fair question. GRIER: (Laughs)... SULLIVAN: I can tell you that it happens quite quickly in the multinational environment of both Sam's and our programme at NATO School . And in fact, as you look at some of the things we're doing out there, we have collaborative, advanced distributed learning, as we discussed earlier, but that has limitations. And one of them... both of you have mentioned human interoperability. Well, in fact, you can't do that over a network-based system. We need to have the people sitting together, actually working together for a short time. I think our courses do quite well, but they're not standalone, and I would even submit that although NATO Defense College is more of a standalone programme, that you can't think of it in isolation. The real challenge is... I would say I see four challenges that are key out there now. Some of them are being addressed. Some of them probably not enough progress has been made. The first being really coherency and a comprehensive approach to education and training with the Alliance . Now in 2003 we stood up Allied Command Transformation. The first time that NATO has really stepped up and said, as part of their mandate, that we have an organization that is in charge of education and training, right? Well, that's one important part. Another part is the interagency approach and we mentioned effects-based operations, effects-based approach to operations. Our staff is almost entirely military at the NATO School , so how much do we work with the Ministry of Interior etc. That's a problem. We need better integration with the European Union. Certainly at the operational training and education field. And then finally I would say there is some progress being made. We have a NATO Partner Education and Training Network, but we have to move forward and get better integrated with all these other institutions out there that can also support the Alliance . SHEA: I think what you raised there is interesting, because there's not only the internal educational aspect. We need to educate ourselves, educate our partners. But what you mentioned, of course, is also the external aspect. If we're in Afghanistan we're working with the UN, the EU, we're working with NGOs and sometimes their culture is not to want to cooperate with the military because they feel that they may be compromised, or they want to operate in a very separate way, and I suppose one of the key things that the two institutions can do is perhaps to draw in the journalists, to draw in the NGOs, to try to break down these barriers. I mean, have you been running programmes, Sam, Mark, in those fields, and are people like NGOs or journalists interested in coming and following courses on NATO? GRIER: Well for the moment the way we bring NGOs and IOs in is we bring them in to give lectures to our course members, and then they interact with the course members in plenary session and then seminars. Quite honestly, we haven't taken the step to invite them in, for example, in our exercise. And we're moving now in that direction because one of the fundamental changes in NATO, you asked how NATO's changing, is to work with international and non-governmental organizations. And so we've got to do a better job of that in the way we educate our course members, so that, in fact, they're exposed to this necessity. SHEA: The same with you Mark, in terms of... SULLIVAN: Pretty much the same. SHEA: ...these new customers as it were? GRIER: We would... we would actually like increased participation in our courses by the United Nations, the Red Cross. In fact, the courses are open to them to the OSCE, but they don't come in large numbers. We're trying to find ways to encourage them so that they're actually embedded in the course membership. We bring them in as guest speakers as well, but there's limitations to how far... how much that's going to benefit you. GRIER: And there are limitations to how long they can spend in our courses. SULLIVAN: Exactly. GRIER: If our course is five and a half months long its... civilians don't have the time to come to the College. So we've created one-week modules and we've invited members of these organizations to come. But as Mark as said, they don't... they haven't started coming yet. SHEA: Another thing, heading towards the Riga Summit, NATO's next major political meeting, which is going to be in November, one of the things that we're looking at here is the development of our relations with Africa , the African Union. We've been helping the African Union in Darfur . There's a strong possibility that NATO could offer more assistance to the African Union or the UN there in future. There's clearly a need to develop with African nations, the African Union, as well as countries in the Middle East or in NATO's Mediterranean Dialogue, there's clearly a need to develop these type of links in terms of capacity building, training. Do you foresee a role for your two institutions in that area as well? Have you already developed some ideas as to how that could be done? SULLIVAN: Well, we have specifically. If we're going to train students or course members from Africa and the Middle East we think that there should be synergy with the existing institution. So, for example, we think Rome is the perfect location for this institution. Perhaps even co-located with the NATO Defense College to take advantage of common facilities, common host nation support, and yet still allowing the centre to operate in its own realm. But Rome , of course, is at the crossroads of the Middle East and North Africa , and as you mentioned in the beginning, Rome is an attractive place for people to come. People like to come to Rome . And so we see this as one way that you can introduce an institution, specifically on these issues. SHEA: But have you already started engaging training and education with military officers, civilians say from the North African countries... SULLIVAN: Only through conferences and workshops. We've done nothing formally at the College. We're in the same boat as with the NGOs and IOs. We've done conferences and workshops, but we have yet to get them into our course. And quite honestly, until the Headquarters specifically directs us to do that, it's... we don't have that mandate. SHEA: So you have to wait for a tasking, as it were, from the Headquarters, rather than being able to take the initiative yourselves in these areas? GRIER: Yes. That is exactly true, but let me give you an example on that. We've actually conducted a number of mobile teams into Algeria , Tunisia , and are about to do another mobile team into Algeria . We conducted recently a mobile team into Belarus , and of course because of that you can imagine there's a political dynamic there. We have to ensure that we had the NATO blessing to do this and that it wasn't just something that was established automatically. SULLIVAN: Because they're PfP and Med Dialogue countries so I think you're asking the question what about countries that are outside of the partnership framework, is that what you mean? SHEA: Well, in terms of at least NATO's operations are going into these areas now, we, obviously, as we said, had this operation in support of the African Union in Darfur . There've been some contacts with the United Nations in how perhaps NATO could help the UN to develop its peacekeeping, peacebuilding capacities in the future. Mark, you yourself mentioned obviously the cruciality of the NATO-EU relationship and therefore the need for better working relations there. So although, yes, you're right, these may not be formal partners as such, at least they're people with whom we're in regular contact within the operational field, and I'm just wondering to what degree we can grow out of that in terms of a more contact at the educational level. It's very good, I imagine, for people to get to know each other, which then facilitates working together later on when they go back to their normal jobs. GRIER: Well, Lisbon currently has a lead on the NATO side for education and training for the AU to support the African Union military staff, and we are actually on task to support them. That's still in development. Quite honestly we're doing some prudent planning against the probability that we'll be supporting them. I think that needs... that will move forward. In fact, we all know that NATO, from a military model it's a great model to help African Union build some real capability and we'd like to be a part of that, of course. Now with respect to something like some education centres or training centres that are affiliated with NATO in the Mid-East or North Africa , while certainly the political diplomatic dimension will drive that, the thing I would be cautious about is, we needed to find, or what do we want them to do. To do what. An affiliated training or education centre in North Africa or the Middle East somewhere, we need to say well, what... how will NATO interact? Are there practical lines of communication, etc. And I think that needs to be sorted out in addition to the political diplomatic issues involved. SHEA: Okay, but it's good to know at least you're already thinking along those lines. Mark, if I may, you mentioned earlier Iraq and I think the viewers of Stopwatch know that we've had now for some time already the NTMI, the NATO Training Mission in Iraq in Baghdad, but what perhaps the viewers don't know so well is that your institutions are also involved in training Iraqi officers outside Baghdad because there are courses ongoing in the NATO countries. And as this is one of the hot political issues at the moment, of course, the ability to stand up, robust, effective Iraqi security forces, how... from your perspective how's it going and what kind of contribution do you feel that you've been able to make to that effort? And have there been any particular difficulties that you've encountered in developing a specifically Iraqi dimension to this programme? SULLIVAN: Well, let me say, it's been a very successful programme for us at NATO school. I'm sure that Sam will say the same for him. Our programme now consists of about 300 Iraqis a year coming through the school. SHEA: That's quite a large number, yeah. SULLIVAN: And we have four there right now attending a civil military cooperation course. By and large the quality of those individuals that have come in is very high. In fact, in one of our last CIMIC courses, Civil-Military Cooperation, the Iraqis put together a lessons learned on their experiences in Iraq . Quite useful. That we, of course, put out to the our higher Headquarters. So it's been very good for us. It's been good for them because people don't realize that under the Saddam Hussein regime very few of them travelled abroad, so we're getting them into Germany for the first time, their first trip outside of their country, and in that sense it's very positive for them, because they think back to 1945 and they think, wow, in a matter of 60 years, look where Germany has come from a country that was devastated by a war, a major war. They were able to rebuild an incredible society. SHEA: But I think what it'd be interesting to learn is what kind of course do they have? What do they do? Is it things that are very much involved in the technical aspects of security on the ground, or is it more democracy and values-based so that they obviously understand the principles of democratic control of armed forces in a future democratic Iraq ? What exactly do you make them do? And how do they respond to it? SULLIVAN: Right. It's been half and half actually, if you look at it. Some of it's very practical. The Civil-Military Cooperation course we run, we run them through a bit of operational planning procedures, intelligence fusion, those sorts of things. But on the other side we also run a Security Cooperation Course which is more in values, democratic values. How does the military deal with democratic control of the armed forces. As we all know, we take for granted here in our western society somewhat. So they find that very interesting. And quite honestly, a fellow in the U.S., Tony Corn, just wrote a recent article about this, where we also here in NATO take for granted the fact that we are really contributing greatly to the democratization of armed forces simply by having these folks in do courses. Whether or not these courses are focused on a functional area like intel CIMIC... SHEA: It's a general cultural experience. SULLIVAN: Yeah, it's sort of... these democratic ideas are being infused throughout the entire course. GRIER: Just to see the deference that a... (SPEAKERS OVERLAP) SHEA: (inaudible)...from Rome . GRIER: Yes, just to see the deference that a senior military officer pays to politicians, to civilian control of the armed forces, it's a big deal for people coming from Iraq . And our numbers are much more modest. We only typically have one or two course members present at the College all the time from Iraq . But they come away with the same kind of experience. They say wow, new thinking, new way to look at issues, and again, this idea of human interoperability. They take it back to Iraq and say, you know, we need to talk and dialogue and discuss. SHEA: Well, as we come sort of towards the end, inevitably we need to look at the future. You seem, like NATO, to be doing a lot. Many different countries, different types of course, more diversity, but nobody can do everything. So as you look to the future, Sam first, how would you like to see the NATO Defense College evolve, and where would you think that you would have to put the emphasis in terms of the key priorities, the stuff that makes the biggest difference? Again, is it vis-à-vis NATO countries, is it certain partner countries that you think need particular attention? Certain types of individual? If you were able to sort of ordain the future what would you do? GRIER: Well, one thing we don't want to lose at the College is the NATO flavour. And so for example, about 85 percent of our course members come from the NATO countries and the other 15 percent are partners or people from Iraq , or contact countries. So, for example, in Senior Course 109 we'll have Japan . We still have to build that NATO ethic that they take with them into NATO and NATO-related appointments. When somebody leaves the NATO Defense College and they come to the Headquarters, they have a network of friends that are going to SHAPE, that are going to the capitals, that are going to delegations, the Mission , the International Military Staff, and that's a natural outgrowth of their time at the College. For example, we recently had the Spanish CHOD come to the College and lecture... SHEA: Short for, by the way, Chief of Defense. GRIER: The Chief of Defense, my apologies. SHEA: Not at all. GRIER: And he talked about when he graduated from the NATO Defense College , how great it was to have all his network of friends that he could contact if he had any issues. So I think that this building a NATO officer, or official, is still an important part of the College, while exposing our partners and friends to western values, and NATO ideals. SHEA: Mark, you're going back to Washington for your next assignment this summer, so presumably you'll be sort of giving your successor a pep talk with your ideas about what he or she should do to take the school forward, so what advice will you be giving him or her? SULLIVAN: Well, let me just reinforce what Sam just said about the NATO Defense College as well. I can tell you I attended there and subsequently went to a NATO assignment. That is the best preparation you can have as a civilian or an officer in order to then subsequently go into a NATO assignment. And we at the NATO School , if you were to ask what our challenges are ahead, it is to increasingly meet the needs of the European Union military staff, as well as the operational commanders as NATO. We need to look at doing that on the operational level in terms of doctrine, operational concepts. SHEA: In other words, you feel there's a danger that the EU planning side and the NATO planning side might grow apart if... (SPEAKERS OVERLAP) SULLIVAN: Well, yeah (inaudible)... SHEA: ...(inaudible)...don't have this educational linkage. SULLIVAN: There is a danger there, and I often tell the students, when they first come in, in my welcoming to them, NATO's the only institution is out there that has over 50 years of doctrine, operational experience, building their own operational concepts. We exercise it daily. We run the full spectrum from humanitarian relief all the way up to Article 5 or full combat operations. So there's that aspect. The other thing I would say is, honestly, we now, as of 2003, we were moved out from under SHAPE and under the Headquarters Supreme Allied Command Transformation. We now have a mandate to help transformation and the real challenge for us is to get integrated into our courses concept development, experimentation, modelling and simulation, and work in a way, in a distributed manner, with a Joint Warfighting Centre, Joint Forces Training Centre in Bydgoszcz, the Joint Analysis & Lessons Learned Centre, and perhaps even in NATO Defense College and the NATO School in Latina, CIS School, in some manner. So those, I think, would be the big challenges for us coming up. SHEA: Sam, as we've still got just a few seconds left, the NATO Defense College also has this think tank, a research institute function. Can you just say a few words about that and how you see that playing a role in the overall future of the Alliance . GRIER: The research branch was actually instituted in 1999 and has grown, as you know, in the last several years. And their initial emphasis was on writing papers of immediate relevance to the Alliance . And now what we're starting to do is try to do some long-term thinking for the Alliance . You in the Headquarters, you're running all the time, I mean, you've run in here, and you're going to run out and we're trying to allow our researchers to have some time at the College to reflect. So, for example, in May we're going to put out a paper on partnership. What should the future of partnership look like? We're going to look at what should our relationship with IOs and NGOs look like? How might we do common funding in a constructive way that the Alliance might accept. So these are the... this is the direction our research branch is moving in, in addition to the traditionally sponsored conferences and workshops on relevant issues. SHEA: Well, ladies and gentlemen, I think you'll see from today's discussion that a few weeks, a few months, either in Oberammergau or Rome, one of NATO's two institutions, it's not only going to be a very pleasant experience from the point of view of the landscape, but also intellectually relevant and stimulating. And that these two schools generally do play a key role in the transformation of the Alliance and in helping us to link up in a durable way to all of the new countries that we're now engaging in our partnerships. SHEA: So I'd like to thank, once again, Colonel Sullivan and Dr. Grier, Mark, Sam, for coming today.