IFOR AFSOUTH TRANSCRIPT Nov 14, 1996

In the interest of speed transcripts of IFOR press briefings are issued in unedited format Transcript of the Press Briefing held on 14 November 1996

Colum Murphy: good morning we are just waiting for the IFOR spokesman who has run away, last seen heading towards Mostar. The Paris Conference as you know is ongoing, meanwhile the office of the High Representative remains concerned by the situation on the ground in the ZOS and contiguous areas. We have shown even-handedness and firmness in our dealings with both the federation and the Republika Srpska and in suspending the procedure for return of refugees. We will continue to encourage the escalation and we will work toward a complete calming of the situation. We must add, however, that none of this incidents in and related to the zone of separation would be happening if the Republika Srpska were welcoming the return of refugees as they should. We will continue to insist that the agreed principles of the return procedure be adhered to. We believe that those principles have now been reaffirmed by the parties. But we do stress that the right of people to return to their own homes is central to the Peace Agreement. It is a right enshrined in numerous human rights instruments, and indeed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights itself. The commitment of the international community to Bosnia-Herzegovina will endure. Refugees will in time return. We will not be outlasted by any proponents of a spurious racial purity. In the meantime we will remain even-handed and in favour of a phased, orderly, nonprovocative and non-violent return of those refugees to their own homes. And there is a copy of this statement available after the press conference. Brett. Major Brett Boudreau: thank you Colum. Good morning everybody. First, the situation related to the fighting over Gajevi, in the zone of separation. Yesterday and the day before, we laid out the sequence of events, and gave you details of the clear evidence that ABIH troops were actively involved in the incursion of Muslim settlers, which in turn provoked an obviously illegal action by the Republika Srpska police. We confiscated weapons from both sides on Tuesday, and yesterday there were demonstrations in the area, but no violence and no incidents of note. Today, we're taking further action to break the chain of provocation and reaction, and to illustrate that any repetition of these incidents, any organized moves like this anywhere else in Bosnia will bring severe consequences. IFOR troops of MND-North at this hour are engaged in operations in the Celic area. Just after 5 a.m., IFOR troops began an inspection with no advance notice at the main headquarters of the ABIH 254 brigade. Within about four hours, IFOR troops had removed virtually all of the weapons and ammunition from that site, which is just West of Celic. Two 5-ton trucks with ammunition and munitions and several hundred AK-47s were removed, and two armoured personnel carriers have been towed away. All of the confiscated materiel is to be destroyed. The reason for this action is that armed troops from that brigade were clearly involved in the Gajevi incident. The brigade chief of staff was seen instigating the refugees. Military-type communications cable was being laid. And we also found out several other evidence of their complicity. Military involvement in such activity is a clear breach of the Dayton Agreement, and will not be tolerated. In a parallel action that is now complete, IFOR troops in conjunction with the IPTF conducted a no-notice inspection of the Republika Srpska police station in Koraj, to the East of Gajevi. Our intention is to also confiscate weapons from that location, the long-barrelled variety like AK-47s, since it was long-barrelled weapons the RS police officers used in their illegal and unacceptable action against the Muslims. These weapons are also to be destroyed, and when the time for this is settled, we will make it possible for the press to be there and watch it all happen. We'll have more details on that later. And to add more cement to the security program in the Celic area, effective mid-day Saturday there will be a ZOS-like zone around Celic, 35 kilometers square, in which weapons of all kinds will be forbidden, except for police side-arms. Enforcement of these new-no-weapons rules in what will be called a "temporary restriction zone" will be primarily up to local police and officials, with IFOR and IPTF supplying their traditional military security and support.

The new rules that will apply in this zone are going out over the next 48 hours in the form of letters and telephone calls to officials, and leaflets with maps and instructions to the general populace. I have an example of that here, which we will make available after the press conference. In the temporary restriction zone, no civilians will be allowed to carry or possess weapons, even with a firearms permit. Existing permits will be null and void, and no new permits are to be issued until further notice. Any active-duty soldier, or reserve soldier, living in this temporary restriction zone will be required to register any weapons, military or otherwise, he keeps at his residence. In addition, the 254 Brigade site will be closed. By noon on November 23rd, the brigade is required to remove any remaining military equipment and ammunition. From now on, this site will cease to be authorized for use by the brigade, and they will have to look for a new home. With these actions, and the messages and letters that are going out on all levels in the aftermath of the incidents, IFOR is part of a renewed effort by the international community to put things right. Our job is military security. Within that framework, the parties, with the help of humanitarian agencies, should address the problems of refugees, ruined homes and returns. We obviously endorse the Dayton Agreement's pledge to see that returns take place, but in a peaceful, orderly and phased manner. Those who have a legitimate claim to unoccupied homes, wherever they are, must be allowed to return. But also, their need for housing must not be manipulated for political or military gain. The programs and rules set up by the UNHCR must be followed, so that further violence and tragedy may be avoided. The weapons will be destroyed this afternoon in MND-North area, we will provide a helicopter for you to go up, there is limited seating, so if you would be please Major Haselock or Major Dawson after the conference, he'll take your names on a first-come, first-served basis. If in fact there are more names than seats than we have seats available, we'll have to pool. We don't think that will be required. The aircraft is tentatively scheduled to depart Sarajevo airport at 1530, returning after the destruction is complete. That's all I have. Alex Ivanko: after the abysmal performance by the police of Republika Srpska and the federation on Monday and Tuesday, yesterday it seems the police forces of the entities in the area of Gajevi got their act together and acted in a more professional manner than in the previous two days, and as we believe were able to keep a lid on the situation. I would like to use this opportunity to once again make the point the Commissioner asked me to make is that the responsibility to uphold law and order lies with the local police. IFOR and IPTF in certain situations can assist the local police but the buck stops with the police forces of the entities. They are the law, not us. At 1500 today, Police Commissioner Peter Fitzgerald will meet with Minister Habib and Deputy Minister Laotar to discuss the situation with regard to federation special police units. The UN international police with not accept any specialized police units, that report outside the normal chain command, as we see today for example the so-called the Herzegobosna special police units report directly to Laotar and the Bosniacs police units directly to Habib. We will not accept that. All specialized police units have to report through the normal chain of command. And the Commissioner's position is that all, as of today, all the special police units must be disband. Also church notice: in the foyer you can get copies of Elizabeth Ren's report to the Secretary General on the human rights situation in former Yugoslavia. That's all I have for you. Randolph Ryan: my comments today have to do with the meeting in Paris, of the Steering Board of the Peace Implementation Council. I want to give you a rough outline of the remarks that Mrs. Ogota is making now as I speak. The point of that meeting was to... Has been to develop a French proposal made last June for a two-year consolidation plan. That would take on after the end of this first Dayton year and continue international efforts into the future. Mrs. Ogota says today that her office fully supports the proposed two-year peace consolidation plan and she says two years more are essential for the task ahead of us all here. The UNHCR program in the next year will consist of a special effort in the Summer of 1997, treating the Summer as the first Summer of large-scale organized return and repatriation. That's the first point. The second point is that UNHCR needs to see that Annex 7 is applied in a regional wide context. Annex 7 of course applies only to Bosnia. But she says in order to move forward we must also promote solutions in a regional context. Annex 7 does not address the issue of the uprooted and neighbouring states such as Croatia and FRY. The causes of displaces in the region are interrelated and so are the solutions, we must broaden the scope of Annex 7 to take this into account. Finally she makes the point that the success of Annex 7 will continue to depend on the actions of all concerned. Annex 7 can not be implemented in a vacuum. Close coordination among all of us will be vital. While we have different mandates, we have a common objective of implementing peace, the role of the High Representative in this respect will remain critical. IFOR has had a major impact. The international community must retain a military presence in the country for the next two years to provide necessary security umbrella for the realization of the overall peace consolidation plan, including the return of refugees. Those international actors involved in the human rights field must also insure better cordinated, more effective operations geared not only towards monitoring but also intervention. The work of the commission for real property claims, which has started to accept claims as of this week, will be key. And to enable it to function properly the commission must receive a generous response for funds. That's the essence of her comments today in Paris. That's it. C. Murphy: questions? Q: you said that the act in Koraj and Gajevi, you explained it as a manipulation by the political games, you would be so kind to elaborate. With whom and who play games with whom? Second question to the UNHCR. You want to inform us under what conditions the people from Koraj and Gajevi who now expelled back, under what conditions they live now, and where they are living? Thank you. Maj Boudreau: yes with respect to the provocation, clearly there is evidence to suggest that the ABIH were involved in provoking an incident, with the intent of having the police in the Republika Srpska react in the fashion they did. Unfortunately, the police decided to take actions which were unacceptable, illegal. By the same token the Muslim settlers, many more than had registered to go back to those homes, were provoked and incited by members of the ABIH. And that is clearly unacceptable, and that's why we've taken robust and strong measures to insure that that threat to the security in the area is removed. Ryan: of course I'm not familiar with all the refugees in the the Celic area who are trying to go back to Gajevi. But in general the conditions they are living in are poor. They're living in cellars of houses. They're living jammed into houses, several families in a space that was intended for only one family. They've lost many of their possessions, of course when they lost their lands. They are living separated from the lands which they really love. These are people who are rooted to the land, it means a lot to them. And if you've been up to the Gajevi valley you can see why because it's a truly beautiful place. Those are the conditions they are living under. And of course under the general condition of disappointment. C. Murphy: Kurt and then Karen and... Q: how did the BIH army instigate, to use your word, the return of women and children... Exactly how is it that they forced, or led, or encouraged women and children to go back to Gajevi and risk their lives? What specific evidence did you have that occurred? Maj Boudreau: we have... As we've made clear over the course of the last couple of days, there is clear and compelling evidence of ABIH involvement, in the activities. They have clearly incited an activity. They incited the RS police. I could run over the list of evidence that we have. Q: if it's so clear just explain to me, how they incited women and children to risk their lives to go back to Gajevi and spend the night there, in an area which I think they, and I certainly I assumed, was under some sort of nominal protection or defense by IFOR or IPTF. But clearly wasn't. Maj Boudreau: the fact is there is a...there is a process by which, people who wish to return to their homes can do so. It's a phased, orderly approach. But they did not do that. (interruption) Q: how were they incited? How were they incited? (interruption) Maj Boudreau: and the A. And the A. And the ABIH allowed and provided for weapons including AK-47s, other automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades to be brought into that area, and thereby placed those persons in jeopardy as well, by clearly violating Dayton and thus potentially inciting the RS police. Q: but would you, and I'm interested in why, would you discount the notion that there were substantial numbers of people there who wanted to return and were willing to take the risk on their own. Because they have a real desire to go back to their home, whether it be in Gajevi or Koraj. (interruption) you seem to be laying this all in the hands of the ABIH...(interruption) Maj Boudreau: absolutely no absolutely clearly, there were numbers of people who wanted to return to their homes, which is their absolute right. They have a fundamental right to return to their homes. By the same token, there is a recognized process by which that is to occur. It was provided for in Dayton and agreed to by the parties, which is phased and orderly. The fact is there are weapons brought into the area, thereby putting themselves and the whole rest of the process in jeopardy. And that is unconscionable. Q: Ry, what is your sense of the motivation of people, and whether they were instigated, or whether they returned at least some of them on their own? R. Ryan: I think the individuals, the people themselves, the little people let's say, who are moving back to these small villages both in Gajevi and some of the other cases we've seen are totally sincere in their wish to go back. Dayton gives them that right. They see Dayton as a beacon of hope. They have seen UNHCR and our efforts as a beacon of hope. And their frustrations, as I said yesterday, are understandable the recent dynamiting of houses in the area, which is also happening in many other areas of the ZOS -- in Brcko, in Doboj area -- of course increases their anxiety and their frustration. They were... I'm sure disappointed that there was no action taken at the commission last week. Although that, as I said yesterday, was in my opinion due to the failure of their... Of the municipal leaders to do their homework and provide completed applications. Now of course these kinds of movements are of interest politically, political leaders, municipal leaders, Cantonment leaders, federal leaders may take an interest in them, May orchestrate them a bit. But the general... By far the greatest part of the thrust of all these movements, is the genuine desire of people to go back to their homes. Now, did some soldiers go back with them, or some people with guns... Some soldiers in civilian dress or whatever? IFOR says yes. I can't say no. I think it's likely that happened. And it's not surprising in certain ways, it's not surprising at all. C. Murphy: Karen. Q: Brett you mentioned earlier and I know you mentioned it yesterday, a military cable. Can you just tell me what was this military cable, or signs of military cables being made. Maj Boudreau: it's communication cables. It allows... It's a... Connected to a military field telephone system, which allows you to communicated from one spot to the other. You can lay it quickly. It can be... It can be used essentially anywhere to quickly establish communications between one point and another. Q: Okay and there were signs that they were laying those cables in Gajevi? Maj Boudreau: that's right. Q: which would seem to suggest that they were going to have communication with their people in Celic? Maj Boudreau: which would seem to suggest that there is a military compacity, a military involvement, so you can actually direct activities in the area quickly. Q: question for randolph. I interviewed Ian Gavic who was very critical of what the international communities effort. This is how he put it. And maybe Colum this would involve you too. In this whole processing of applications, he said it's ridiculous to assume people will go back peacefully through the process of applications. It's not going to happen. And he criticized the international community for not pushing the system forward and actually enabling a peacefull resettlement of people. Now can either one of you comment on these kinds of criticisms? R. Ryan: I'm confused about those criticism. But I think he said that he didn't like the procedures but he wanted them to be implemented more quickly or something? Q: he felt that they were not being implemented fast enough -- the process of applications was not being implemented fast enough -- and he criticized the international communities' efforts in this system. R. Ryan: that's Bologna. The effort of UNHCR staff to move this thing along has been intense. I'm aware of that because a lot of it 's taking place in the Tuzla area. My colleagues in the office up there have worked very hard in the case of Jusici, Mahala, Brcko, Stanisreca, and also Celic. And there have not be delays on the part of UNHCR. Now whether or not the overall Dayton Treaty, or the overall performance of the international community, is adequate is another story but the problem does not lie in these procedures. These procedures were set up, of course as a screening procedure, as I said yesterday, to insure military people are not moving into militarily significant positions, under the guise of being civilians. That was to reassure, especially the Serbs, and to reassure IFOR, which is responsible for the situation in the ZOS, and in general to create a system that... A smoother system that works better for everybody. It's not a perfect system but it was a common sense response to a situation that was appearing all along the ZOS. It's been implemented in a common sense way. Certainly UNHCR has made an effort to make it as user friendly -- as applicant friendly -- as possible. There's not red tape, there's not wasted time. People work long hours and.. I'd welcome Mr. Ganic to visit our office and look at the way we work. Q: can I just clarify something, I'm sure it's been said a million times, and I apologize for doing this, but who has ultimate control over this application process? Is it the UNHCR, is it an international body, or is it the local people and the local authorities on both sides? R. Ryan: it's called a commission but it's really local commissions dealing with local situations ... Dealing with numbers of applicants that ... From a locality. The commission in each case is made up of a UNHCR representative, IPTF, IFOR, and Office of High Rep. And the general organizing of the commission is done... Is done... By UNHCR. The UNHCR takes the lead if there were some sort of... Tie vote, which is difficult when you have four people voting the .... Well it's not impossible but... The UNHCR would break the tie. UNHCR has been thrust into the role of making it work and to my knowledge has taken that responsibility seriously, certainly in the Tuzla aor, area of responsibility. Q: that... Randolph... You mentioned yesterday and again today houses destroyed in the Gajevi area . Is that what precipitated the Muslims trying to move in the area? And also why... Go ahead and answer that then I have a follow up. R. Ryan: I mean a number of things may have precipitated it. But certainly that was an important element in it. As you can see there is a campaign of destruction of houses scattered all across the ZOS, across important areas of the ZOS. We've seen that in Brcko. A great effort has gone into rebuilding houses in the ZOS, in Brcko. People have been laboring out there all Summer, since last Spring. I know many of them are, I know a number of them personally, I've watched their progress, it's been very impressive, and it's been very sincere. Same thing in the Doboj area, same thing in some of the other areas, and now as the reality of return approaches, the houses are being dynamited, being destroyed. The fact that that kind of campaign is running all across the country of course increases the anxiety of people everywhere. If a house blows up in Brcko or Doboj, I'm sure that is noted by the people in Celic. And I'm sure they fear a generalized campaign. Q: there weren't actually houses of Muslims in the Gajevi area that were destroyed? R. Ryan: two were blown up in my ear shot on Monday when I was up there. (pause) and there have been others in recent weeks. I believe dozens. Q: in that area? R. Ryan: yeah in that area. Yes in that valley. Q. Two questions, the first is actually a follow up to what Laura has been saying. I understand that the IPTF and the IFOR have both got reports of quite a lot of these houses being blown to bits in these two villages in the days preceding this move into the villages, is this right? And do you have numbers for how many houses? Maj Boudreau: I haven't seen exact numbers I mean we have been relatively open about discussing exploding homes over the course of the past five or six weeks ever since this insidious trend began. Yes, there have been a number of homes in that area destroyed over the course of the last three or four weeks and in fact well of course the past several days but we have not made every single explosion that we have heard public in this forum. There have been a number, yes, in the order of some 200 I believe over the course of the past four or five weeks throughout the area of operations. That's a significant number. We've gone over in some detail the steps that we are taking in an attempt to try and catch the perpetrators but no, we have not made every single explosion public, no,......that we know of. Q. Just to finish that is it possible to make a request that, I know it is time consuming for both of you to find out from your people exactly how many have been burnt up and when, because I understand it is 26 in these two villages, I don't know the 200 figure but..... Maj Boudreau: no, I am saying I mentioned that throughout the area of operations, throughout Bosnia, but what we do have is some general data that would go some way to addressing that and I think that we could make that available. Q. I would like that if it is possible, specific request thanks. Second question is for Colum. You have a temporary restricted zone and you have frozen returns, presumably that is a kind of deadlock so can you maybe talk me through what happens next. And do you think these people will be back before the snow turns up, in their houses? C. Murphy: I would certainly hope so, this question would be addressed also in Paris. As I said in my statement, although we have been very firm with both sides, both the federation and the Republika Srpska, we strongly feel that these people should be able to return home, that is central to the Peace Agreement and to every other human rights instrument that people be allowed to return to there own homes and leave them if they wish. I would certainly hope we are talking about days instead of weeks or weeks instead of months, yes. Does that answer your question or is there another part? Q. Not entirely, do you mean the temporary restriction zone remains until this return thing is being sorted out and until the people have gone home, is that right, and then the zone is then lifted is that how it works? C. Murphy: yes, I think, though, this question you should address to IFOR. Maj Boudreau: at this point we will impose this zone as of Saturday and will keep it in place until such time as the local military commander -- the local IFOR military commander -- is convinced that there will be no further threat -- military threat -- to that area so it is for an undetermined period of time. Q. I have a question for IFOR. If you can't stop the bombing of houses how can you expect the Muslims to respect the deal that was worked out with UNHCR and you. Because they give advance warning of where they want to go. Those documents are provided to the Serbs through an UNHCR back channel in Zvornik, I know this because I was at a meeting when a woman gave the Serbs the documents, so the Serbs just have to take off the documents and blast the Muslim houses. Maj Boudreau: what you are doing is putting the onus on IFOR when in fact the onus should be on the parties themselves to stop this kind of activity. (interruption): the ZOS is your territory, you run it. Maj Boudreau: the ZOS belongs to the people of this country. It is their responsibility to stop this kind of activity. We will do what we can to assist the parties to stop this kind of activity. That is not to say that we are necessarily going to be 100 percent successful. I mean obviously we have not been. It is a difficult thing to do. As with any crime, prevention is a difficult undertaking. Q. Have you prevented or captured anyone? Maj Boudreau: we have not captured anyone. We have prevented the destruction of several homes as we have made clear over the course of the past several weeks where we have found evidence of mines being set up in houses, which have not been detonated. Some in the Prijedor area, some in the MND North area, so we have made substantial progress in trying to determine who might be responsible for these. We're still a ways away from providing information as to perpetrators. We have collected some evidence. We continue to patrol the areas of high risk but the fact is it is a huge country. We can't be on every street corner watching people sneaking into places to destroy homes. And the fact is if you're going to conduct this kind of activity you are going to do it surreptitiously. You are going to do it outside of the view of IFOR, of IPTF and other agencies. It is a difficult process; we admit that. Q. A question for UNHCR. Why do you provide the Serbs with these informations if they are not sitting on the committee? R. Ryan: well under these procedures both entities -- both the Serbs and the federation -- are asked ... They are invited and asked to have observers sitting with the commission. Remember part of the theory of this whole thing was to re-assure the Serbs, to get them to chill out a little bit about these return movements to the ZOS. And it is important that they be there. At the Jusici commission, as I remember, they did not show up. That was not felt to be a good thing it was felt to be a bad thing. Part of the point of this was to draw them into the process so that they ... Although they don't have a vote, they don't have a veto -- neither side does -- but they are welcome to be there. Now by definition, they should and do have access to the information about who wants to move back. Seems to me that's a commonsense thing. You can't move back in secret. You know... Q. Question for Alex. At what time did the inspection of the police station in Koraj start and with what results? I didn't get it? J. Boudreau: the inspection into the Koraj police station began around ten o' clock this morning. It is complete, but I don't have a final count yet as to the result of that inspection. A. Ivanko: I don't have anything further. C. Murphy: Chris and then Philipp. Q. For the UNHCR. If your lists of houses where the Muslims are gonna move back to are given to the Serbs who go and then blow them up, are you going to continue this policy or are you going to review it? R. Ryan: well let's go back to the beginning of the policy, in Brcko area we had a commission which was a prototype for this (inaudible) commission. We have had it operating for months. Of course once people go back ... Now those houses were destroyed in the first place, but when people start going to work on them they come back to life and pretty soon it's very clear which houses are being repaired and which houses are about to be moved into. There is no way of hiding. Nor should there be. Now if there is no security in the ZOS, or if there is insufficient security, people come in, they spot targets and they have been blowing them up as they neared completion and neared the state where occupancy was possible, that's Brcko. The situation is a little different in other places, in Gajevi of course there are houses that were, had been basically attacked although looted that have now recently been blown up, but I think it is very hard to imagine a secret return. I mean everyone knows where the areas are that people want to return to. I just don't think that we've got a solution to that problem. Q. So just for the record the policy stays the same. You send over the lists and if the houses get blown up well ... Too bad. R. Ryan: the commission is suspended now. When the commission resumes, the entities will both be present or both will be invited to be present as observers. I don't think that is were the problem lies. I don't think that is where the answer lies, the answer lies in greater security in the ZOS. And of course in the attitudes and attitude adjustment in the Serbs, now whether or not either one of those things is possible or realistic is a question that everybody has to face. Q. One related question then another subject. Isn't it true that these homes are being blown up within just a few kilometres of NATO bases that contain hundreds of soldiers and that those soldiers are not fanning out at night. They refuse to spend the night in any villages and the security problem is continuing in this fashion, basically they are not going out there, they are not getting into the villages at night to secure them. Is that correct? Maj Boudreau: I would invite you, Phillip, to spend some time with some of those soldiers who...... (interruption)......I've seen it in Brcko, Brett. I've seen it. It is less than a kilometre away and they are blowing up the homes, at night, they re-build them during the day; they blow them up at night. Maj Boudreau: Phillip, the invitation is open to you to spend time with a patrol out at night. Q. Okay, second, different subject completely. In terms of what is going on in Han Pijesak parallel military headquarters. First question for NATO and possibly IPTF, is anybody aware of hostages -- people -- being detained in either Pale or Han Pijesak in relation to the controversy over who is the current commander of the RS (Republika Srpska)? Maj Boudreau: we read the news reports as well, we don't have any independent confirmation of that taking place, but we have seen that through the various media reports yes. A. Ivanko: we were informed by the chief of police of Trebinje that a certain point I think it was Tuesday, Minister Ninkovic, the Defence Minister, was detained for a number of hours in Han Pijesak. The report said Minister Ninkovic and a number of other people. I have heard that among them were journalists from SRJNA. Q. Brett, does IFOR see a link between the blowing up of houses and the desire of refugees to move into the villages this week, I mean does it have to be that the ABIH inspired the refugees to go back or do you see the blown up houses could have led to this? Maj Boudreau: well clearly people want to move back, people should move back. There is no doubt whatsoever about that. We are committed to that process. Certainly, if I was a displaced person and I knew my home was going up in smoke I would want to move back to the area as well ... And quickly. By the same token it does the process no good to skirt the process. It is difficult, it is at times complex, it is entirely frustrating, we accept that. So I agree with your statement that would be a reason why people would want to move back to that area, however to circumvent the process at the same time to add the other element of ABIH involvement or any involvement of soldiers or weapons in the particularly sensitive area of the ZOS is just fundamentally destablizing to the process itself. Q. Haven't conditions been created where the only chance these people have of saving their homes is to jump the gun, move in and threaten the possibility of destablization because it is the only circumstances that IFOR will move in with a significant force into their village and prevent the blowing up of houses? Maj Boudreau: the international community has worked diligently in an effort to try and set up the mechanisms through which people can move back to their homes in a phased and orderly process. As I suggested and I am sure Ry can expand on that, it is a timely process -- that is accepted -- but we all want to be certain that those people who are going back -- who want to go back to those homes -- have a legitimate right to go back to the homes and are not using that mechanism as a tool to bring in either weapons or soldiers or anything that would serve to destabilize the area. Q. But don't you think that it might be time for a policy rethink because the policy as it stands, the combination of UNHCR and IFOR policies, not to mention ABIH and RS policies, is leading to a series of clashes along the IEBL? Maj Boudreau: well I think that if they ... I don't know if Ry wants to add any more to that, but the only thing I can say is, there is a process, there is a process in place -- temporarily suspended at this point -- but incidents such as what happened at Gajevi simply point to the absolute fundamental requirement to follow that process strictly until such time as a security situation can be put into place and established throughout the country that people can move back when they want. At this point they simply cannot go back the day they want to. There is a phased, orderly process that should be and has to be followed, otherwise we run into situations like we did at Gajevi. Q. My name's Laura. I just want to clarify yesterday you said that the procedure for return was suspended until four conditions were met, and I believe the fourth one was that there are no more explosions in the area. So in a way aren't you punishing the refugees or the returnees and inviting the Serbs to keep blowing up houses because it will suspend the process further into the future? Maj Boudreau: to whom do you want to direct that question? A: to Colum, I guess, and I'm wondering if the explosions continue, if you might consider changing that policy? C. Murphy: well the policy actually is constantly under review and we are not happy with the situation. We don't think the procedure is perfect. Sometimes we get the impression, to use Ry's phrase, that one is constantly pushing, in this case, to change attitudes and mindset in the Republika Srpska. That seems to be an extremely long process and it is why we are not going to be outwaited on the matter. We do think refugees will return. There are problems with the procedure that make it extremely frustrating that go to the heart of the Dayton Agreement on returns and if you can come up with any better answers please tell us. Ambassador Steiner met with madam Plavsic the other evening before going to Paris, yesterday morning rather, a very long and difficult discussion took place and madam Plavsic says that in fact Gajevi was the consequence, she said, of inaction by the international community, as she put it in Mahala, Dugi Dio and Jusici. And after a very difficult meeting, she eventually conceded that the principles of this procedure should be returned to and adhered to so it seems as if changing the mindset there is a long -- we know it is a long -- frustrating process. There are problems with the procedure. People should be able to return home. As Brett said I would certainly want to return to my own home and feel that I have the right to so. We can't think of any better solution at this moment. If you can think of anything better then we're open to that. Q. I just wonder if you could clarify to me why these weapons were confiscated from this particular brigade --because they were in a ZOS or because you had any sort of evidence that they were involved in these activities? Maj Boudreau: yes, we've had ... There is substantial evidence to implicate members of that brigade in the activities at Gajevi the other day, I can run through those with you later if you'd like, but suffice to say that brigade and its commanders evidently did not hold Dayton in high regard. They posed a threat to the environment, they are clearly not in control. They don't deserve to have those weapons because they are demonstrating that they are not responsible, they are not responsible actors in that area, so we'll remove them from them and destroy them. Q. So you actually took all the weapons that you found? Maj Boudreau: we have left ... Obviously I still don't have all the details of what actually was taken. I do understand that we have left the security force at that barracks with a sufficient number of weapons -- in the order of about 15 -- to provide for their own protection. But the remainder of the weapons, explosives and ammunitions were removed. Q. Could we get new information on the situation in Staniclieka and Sleclika because -- do I remember it right? --more than 80 families of this completed procedure and approval of housing commission were prevented from coming back by mines being planted and IFOR refusing to de-mine. And now that the procedure is suspended does it mean that they cannot go back (inaudible) they fulfill all the obligations put on their side. Maj Boudreau: when I checked into that following your question the other day, Jan, my information from that area suggests that there is no indication that those mines were recently laid. There is certainly a security threat to those persons in the form of persons with sticks and stones, which suggests that to the people who wanted to return that there is not ... That it would not be a safe or secure endeavour for them to do so. And they voluntarily returned on their own. And with respect to their future activities or moves I am not sure where they stand or where it stands in the application process. Q. Just to check are you saying that those mines were not recently laid. Maj Boudreau: what I am saying is the information that is provided to me is that there is not an indication to suggest that they were recently laid. Q: I'm sorry it totally contradicts IPTF and UNHCR....... (tape cuts out) A. Ivanko: we did run into fresh wire and signs saying mines on Tuesday. Q: on Tuesday? A. Ivanko: yes, on Tuesday. Two days ago, yeah. C. Murphy: Chris. Q: this is a question for anybody I suppose if they want to answer it. From the reader point of view, this returns thing makes sense. Obviously you don't want troops moving into the villages, you want people who actually live there. But the reader would also think, “well surely this is quite a simple matter. You've got somebody who's standing looking at this house across the valley. You go up with your table and so on and you say can you prove, do you have some kind of document to show that you live there. And they show the document and you make a photo copy, and then off they go." And it's something that could be done, I would in a few hours, but you know, a day at most. So can anyone explain why it can't be done like that. (long pause) Q: do you want me to repeat the question? C. Murphy: who are you addressing the question to? Q: who ever wants it. C. Murphy: so first of all, maybe Ry would like to talk about the commission, but I would imagine it's not as simple as that, for the simple reason that if someone presents a piece of paper that says I would like to have to the house on the left please, in most countries that would not be sufficient claim on a particular place. But the actual workings of the commission, do you want to comment on that, Ry? R. Ryan: yeah... I'm sorry would you mind running by me that question again, I spaced out. Q: yeah okay. It seems a fairly straight forward matter, or a fairly quick matter, for people to prove ownership of their houses. Obviously there would be some sort of really tricky ones. But I would have thought if you put a person down there, and you had all these farmers and people who were actually living maybe two ks [kilometers] from their houses, and can see their houses, and said to them, "look, can you prove, do you have documents or whatever it is." And if they can prove it, that it could be done on the spot, and maybe you could explain why it can't be done on the spot, like that. R. Ryan: as I said this whole commission was set up as a screening process to reassure the Serbs, and reassure IFOR, that bad people, military people, wolves in sheeps clothing were not sneaking into these villages. So a procedure was set up. That's the reason for the procedure. Now it's not so easy to prove ownership of your house. You have to have a deed, maybe the deed's in Zvornik. It's not all that easy. But that's not what the procedure asks for. As I said, it's returnee friendly. We look for informal documents for example, pre-war voter list, and things like that to establish a link, a prima facie link, between the village and the individual. It's really not very complicated if the officials do their homework. In the case of Celic, if they had provided the pre-war voter list, along with the list of people who wanted to move back, it wouldn't have been hard. C. Murphy: none of this would be necessary, none of this debate would be necessary, if we succeeded more easily and more quickly in changing this mindset in the Republika Srpska. Because of course they should be welcoming people to come back to their own homes. That's the bottom line. Is there anybody else? One last question, otherwise ... Thank you very much.