IFOR AFSOUTH TRANSCRIPT Nov 12, 1996

In the interest of speed transcripts of IFOR press briefings are issued in unedited format Transcript of the Press Briefing held on 12 November 1996

Colum Murphy: morning. The three-man presidency as you know, of Bosnia Herzegovina began its latest meeting this morning at 9:30 in the National Museum. I also explained already we are engaged like the presidency itself in preparations for the powers conference on Thursday. We've already said a good deal on this subject suffice to say this morning that this is an important point in the piece process and for its future shape. With the disturbing news from the ZOS and difficulties on the ground, now is the time to seize the opportunity of progress with the joint institutions. The country urgently needs in the first instance a government. And a government that will seize the initiative, make these problems on the ground its own, and find solutions. Simon Major Simon Haselock: good morning everybody. It was busy day yesterday, especially in MND-N. Where we saw what we believe to be another installment of the campaign to provoke violence in the ZOS. At approximately at 0730 yesterday morning, about 150 Muslims carrying rations, and sleeping bags, purpose unknown, were reported to be marching between Celic and Koraj, crossing the IEBL and moving into the villages of Marici and Gajevi. At approximately 1000 hrs shot were heard in the area of Marici, but after the deployment of IFOR troops and an Apache helicopter, the shooting subsided. A number IPTF monitors and IFOR civil affairs teams moved into the area to restore calm. During the day however, the number of people at the site swelled and there were reports of up to 400 Muslims having moved. Moved there. Apparently from Celic. Three additional platoons of IFOR troops in the Russian brigade responded, these troops supported by helicopters, established positions in order to control potential violence. In discussions between representatives of MND North, the other international agencies, local Muslim leaders and the mayor of Celic it became apparent that many in the crowd intended to stay in Gajevi. The mayor was asked to intervene and explain to the potential returnees that they were flouting the established procedures for returning to abandoned villages in the zone of separation. The applications that some had made to move into the area had been rejected. He refused. By 1700 the crowd consisted of women and children carrying sticks, and men of military age and demeanor some of whom appeared to be laying communication cable. Additionally IFOR patrols reported three groups of armed Serb police at locations to the East of the villages. This morning we have renewed reports of shooting coming from the area of the villages occupied by the Muslims. At the moment we are maintaining a strong presence in the area and will keep our troops in place there to contain the situation. We remain ready to mount operations as necessary, to remove unauthorized weapons from the ZOS and anywhere else, deemed necessary. IFOR supports the right to resettle in Bosnia obviously, in the ZOS or anywhere else. And we recognize that the resettlement problem, or the returned problem, has failed to receive enough attention by the parties. This in itself has caused frustration amongst those who wished to return to their former homes. But international community has helped work out a process that can work, if the parties will support it. But pushing a campaign to provoke incidents like this one is deliberate provocation. We believe this campaign is so blatant and obvious, it needs no analysis. Here is a village with no life support, no houses to speak of, and a group that marches in overnight. It is no wonder that trouble followed. And all of this happens conveniently the night before a meeting on the ZOS resettlement. Needless to say, that meeting is now off. As with Jusici we believe this to be a deliberate, orchestrated and provocative move to circumvent and discredit the established approved procedures for refugee returns to the zone of separation. We believe it to have been carried out with at best the acquiescence of the Bosnian authorities and at worst their direct complicity. This is a highly sensitive area and a critical time. It is not helpful to the cause of the returnees and certainly does little for the creation of the necessary stability for the orderly and phased return that we all would wish. In another incident in MND SW, there were reports of 15-20 explosions late last night about ten kilometers South of Bos Novi. The reports came from our own patrols, which went to investigate and are currently searching the area. And we'll report when we have established the seat of the explosions and what exactly has happened. At the moment we have no further report.

And finally in regards to the situation in the VRS, as we said yesterday, General Walker met with General Tolimir in order to establish the position with the VRS general staff. The meeting was inconclusive. As a result General Walker intends summon General Cloic to his headquarters in the near future, in order to clarify the position directly with him. As yet, he does not have a telephone but we will track him down. COMIFOR will continue to discuss the issue with the Republika Srpska political authorities as required. Alex. Alex Ivanko: the United Nations believes the use of force for either the purpose of resettling in and abandoned village, or the purpose of stopping people from doing so is completely unacceptable. There is an established procedure developed concerning the resettlement of villages in the zone of separation, and all parties should follow this procedures in good faith. With regard to yesterday's... To the monitor that was injured yesterday, as I have said to a number of you who have called me, he was injured in an accident, by a Republika Srpska policeman. He was injured when himself and his partner were giving a ride to this policeman to Koraj, when the policeman was getting out his gun went off. The injury is not life threatening, although serious, and he is currently in the Tuzla IFOR hospital. And that's all I have thank you. C. Murphy: questions. Q: you want to give us more information about the application process? Why people's application were rejected and whether they have any grounds to believe that they have legitimate complaints about the process? Kris Janowski: what happen is the applications were not in fact rejected. There was 120 applications processed by the international commission and the applicants did not precisely specify the place of origin. Since the international commission approves only applications for the zone of separation, in many cases it was unclear, and in fact many of these people were believed to be residents of Koraj in the Republika of Srpska. Which is not in the zone of separation. And if they want to go back to Koraj, they can essentially go without applying to go. So what we did, what the international commission did, we asked the mayor of Celic to... To take the applications back to the people and ask them to precisely specify where they come from. If it's a village in the zone of separation, that's fine. But if it's Koraj then the international commission has no jurisdiction since the return of Republika of Srpska is no, subject to approval by the international commission, and that's essentially what happen. The mayor did get quite anger... Over this. And it might have triggered the march across the line, but perhaps it was planned or, ya know... (inaudible) I don't know, it's very hard to say, but that's what essentially happen. So no applications were rejected. Q: just a follow up point. What is the gain that the Bosnian government side, which seems to be the instigator, as your presenting it at least in this instance. What is the likely gain that they would see from sparking these incidents? Whether it's before a meeting or... The meeting on resettlement, or the meeting in Paris, what's the game they are playing? You must be analyzing their motives. K. Janowski: as far as I’m concerned. I mean there's nothing to gain from it. It doesn't make much sense, it creates tension, it creates trouble, it... Draws international...(pause) criticism and so I...really... I don't ya know... I don't, I don't see what's in it for them. I mean the other element of this of course, is now that there are very frustrated people who basically want to go home. And there have been bad things happening in the zone of separation, there have been new mines, there have been houses being blown up, and so on and so forth, so these people may feel... may feel nervous about the future of their houses. So it has legitimate frustration. But ya know this also has the whole move seems to be well prepared and well planned. They have tents, they have camping equipment, they have all kinds of things they need basically to stay out in the open. Since most of their houses are now ruined anyway. Q: you can't tell people that if they want to go back to their homes, and their homes have been destroyed and their planning to stay. It would be pretty stupid not to go with tents and food. K. Janowski: no I agree.... Fine I mean that's fine. But we have established a procedure to which the Bosnia authorities have agreed. And this procedure... Is not very complicated. In the previous cases, like Jusici or Mahala, the people in other villages where people are applying to go, their applications were processed very quickly and and overwhelming majority of them were approved. We don't even ask for the actual title to the property, the actual property rights, also we ask them only to prove that they did live in that village before the war. That they have genuine link with the village. So perhaps it takes a bit longer but we think that this vetting system by the international commission. Even though it requires more patience from the refugees, it's perhaps a safer way to do it. Q: do you have a current total of how many applications in the total ZOS area have been granted by the international commission. K. Janowski: well... 127 I believe in the case of Mahala. And... I’m sorry in the case of Jusici, and about 160 in case of Zetlica and the Doboj area. That again, the whole thing became complicated by the violence, and the mines, and the blowing up of the houses. So it is immensely complicated. Some in conversation with us... The... Mayor of Celic was saying, 'look we are ready to wait for these applications, we are ready to do it. But then while we wait for the applications to be processed, and why the applications are being approved our houses are being destroyed and mines are being laid. So there is, the whole thing is immensely complicated and part of the problem is of course is the... What we see as refusal by the Serb entity to agree to minority returns. And they have said it many times and it is part of the same problem. Q: so have you seen that as a pattern of where applications are being submitted to this international commission and being followed.. (interruption) K. Janowski: this happen, this happen, only in fact, in the case of Zedleacha and those villages near Doboj, plus near Prijedor in case of assessment visit rather than a return. In Jusici the situation was different, since the people pulled back and while they were out of Jusici. Jusici was essentially controlled by IFOR. So those... The Republika of Srpska whoever wanted to, would have wanted to blow up the houses didn't have a chance anyways. Q: so is the full total more less of the 127 and the 160...(interruption) K. Janowski: yeah. That's, I mean I can... I can try and find out perhaps there have been other meetings of, that I’m not aware of. But we talking here a few hundred people I think that have been approved by the commissions. And actually the meeting of the commission on the return to the zone of separation, in that area, near Koraj was scheduled for the 14th of November. And that's when we are going to have a look at the 120 applications with more specified, specific place of origin is very vital because if you don't come from the zone of separation you should not be processed by the commission. You can try an go to Koraj on your own, I don't think it would be very prudent, prudent thing to do though. Q: this region has been very sensitive, I recall 2 months ago there was somebody, a Muslim he was shot when he was working in his field by a car a drive by shooting incident. But I’m a little bit confused, Kris you're saying that the Serb entity has refused minority returns. Basically on a very categorical basis, now these people that are from just across the valley they can see their home from Celic and in fact you're saying they can not go camping on the side of a mountain when there's nothing there. Because their not back in their hometown, they can't go camping in the IEBL and that's illegal? K. Janowski: yes of course they can go camping in the. What it is we established the procedures for the return to the zone of separation. And these procedures require the people to apply to the international commission which is chaired by UNHCR, and which is very friendly disposed to the return of the zone of separation. And the international commission basically makes sure these people do come from the village and then they can return. What they did here is they didn't wait for the commission to approve them, they just went. We have nothing against camping equipment and things like this. But what, what, we oppose is spontaneous return without going through the commission since we have established the commission, that's what it's for. Maj Haselock: it's also added that appears their carrying more than camping equipment as well. I mean there are indications at the moment, and they have yet to be confirmed, that there are weapons amongst them. From that point of view it is specifically in IFOR's interest, for people to bring in weapons to the zone of separation and it (inaudible) seems reports of shooting to be prepared to use them. Q: do we have any idea yet, who actually opened fire first? And can we take that both crowds had guns or were carrying weapons? Maj Haselock: we can't. We can't. From our point of view we can't specify that exactly. And when you say both crowds, I don't know what you mean. Q: I mean the Muslims and the Serbs, obviously was there shooting. Did the shooting come from just from one side or were they both shooting at one another? Maj Haselock: at the moment we can't verify that. The only shooting I know of is reports of shooting. There are some more reports this morning of the shooting, which I’m told comes from the area where the Muslims are. But that has yet to be clarified. A. Ivanko: I can only say that as the reports of yesterday morning we have unconfirmed reports that the first shots were fired from the Republika of Srpska side. Q: is IFOR at the moment checking from these people who are staying there, whether or not their carrying weapons? Maj Haselock: IFOR at the moment to say has the area secured. We are ready to mount operations if necessary and we may well be doing that later on. Depends on how the situation develops. Q: but are you searching any of these people to see if they are carrying weapons? Maj Haselock: not at the moment. Correct. Q: is it fair to say then that the only people the international community has confirmed to have seen carrying weapons are Serbs in the area? Maj Haselock: the only people we ourselves have seen carrying weapons are Serbs. Q: so isn't that a bit of a stretch for you to be condemning the Muslims for apparently bringing weapons into the area and being prepared to use them when no one has seen them with guns? Maj Haselock: first of all people haven't seen them with them. People have heard and felt the effect of those weapons. What I am saying, I am not being semantic, we have not seen weapons amongst the Muslims but there has been fired coming in the other direction and there have been the results of that fire. Q: but you don't have anyone in this village this morning, I was told. So you don't know who was doing the shooting there it is quite possible that someone has come from outside the village and is firing into it. Is it not? Maj Haselock: a lot of things are possible. The fact is, my understanding this morning is that the reports are that the fire is coming from the village. We are sufficiently close to the village to take fire, and be able to see where that fire is coming from. What we haven't done as of yet is seen the specific people carrying weapons. And that will be established later on today. As with all these things, these reports came in at 8:30 this morning, they are still confused, they still have to be established exactly what they are. We have these reports, and hopefully they will be more clear about them later on today. But certainly my understanding this morning is that they are coming from the airway (inaudible) plus we are not in the village we are close to it. Certainly within small arms range, and so therefore I... We are in position to be able to know any direction the fire is coming. A. Ivanko: RS police located in the area do carry side arms, which they are authorized to do. Q: when you were making your statement you said something to the effect that you were prepared to contain the situation. Which sounds like and interesting would possibly, I don't know if it was used artfully or just in passing. Does that mean you are intending to sort of put a coriander in the area and let, let the situation sort itself out. Without spilling over to other areas or that your going to take active steps to sort the matter out and separate potential combatants? Maj Haselock: I’ll have to look, I don't think I used the word possibly, we intend to contain the situation. We intend also to maybe to revamp operations to actually remove weapons from the zone of separation from anybody who carries them. We are not going to discuss specific what we intent to do but it will become clearer later on today. Q: is there any particular reason why you are not in the village at the moment? Maj Haselock: I don't understand really. We are... The village is...(inaudible) these villages are spread out. They are.. Do not consist of very much at all. We at the moment are at a position where we're interposed between the crowd and where the Republika of Srpska police are believed to be. And that is what we are doing at the moment. Our stance, the remainder of the day, remains to be seen as I say we reserve the right to carry out further operations. How the day plays out will remain to be seen. Q: but if there is still shooting going on at the moment is it in one particular area or is it spread out? Maj Haselock: my understanding is it is coming from the village. But as I said already these are unconfirmed reports, they are the early morning first reports, often in these circumstances the first reports we receive are inaccurate. So therefore I would not like to go down heavily as saying what specifically they are because we don't know at the moment. Q: at the moment...(interruption) Maj Haselock: certainly we know the direction they are coming from. Q: okay but at the moment, IFOR troops are not in that particular village where...(interruption) Maj Haselock: not in the village, but on the outskirts of the village. K. Janowski: but yes our people that scribe to me... It's not.... There is a group of people, fewer of course than 600, sitting in one place on a hill sort of overlooking Koraj. They have some company with them there. But a lot of people have found out to... Other villages in the area, so they're probably in several villages in the area. That's why, there not sort of... All sitting in one place. So we're talking of a fairly large area. (interruption) Maj Haselock: and it runs... K. Janowski: that's probably very good to have a (inaudible)complete overview of what's going on in the entire area. Maj Haselock: those of you who went to Prijedor, remember the villages we talked about separate villages but they all effectively ran into each other. This is the same sort of area. Q: yeah, Colum this is for you. Bare in mind Paris is upon us almost. Dayton's nearly, the timetable is nearly up, and we still have this messing around with villages. And it's perfectly clear that the Serbs are not going to let the Muslims come back. I’m just wondering is anything going to happen Paris or ya know, after Paris are things going to change? Or do you envision in the next months and years that this sort of thing is going to drift on. That we are going to have more and more of these ZOS crisis? C. Murphy: well we hope not. There's a race going on between the formation of the common institutions and the need to deal with the problems on the ground that we've just been talking about. What we are doing at the moment is... We are feeding in these reports or summaries there of, and our concern of into the presidency meeting that is going on at that moment. We have our responsibilities. But we feel that as I said in my statement the country urgently needs a government and that is underlined but what has been happening in the zone of separation. Will it continue after Paris? Certainly hope not. But we see no other way forward than to form a government quickly, our urge that forming and continue the business in Paris in great detail. K. Janowski: (inaudible) office communicate our concerns during the Paris conference. With our concern, main concern here, about the blockage of minority returns and all the problems we are facing. And the kind of up hill struggle that we're facing here. And certainly more political pressure will be needed on the parties to essentially deliver on what they signed up in Dayton. Otherwise we'll see no return of minorities, and... Ummm... That's essentially the whole story. How, what kind of pressure that's not up to UNHCR to decide. Q: and yet Colum when you talk... I mean the presidency meeting going on today, what do you get from the Serb side? Do you day to them 'look one of the main points of Dayton is to let these people home. You're not letting these people home' and what do they say to that? C. Murphy: one of the essential cleavages in the, these meetings is that there is a great and deep-seeded fear on the Serb side, for whatever reason, of these returns. And on the federation side a determination that the returns go ahead. Some how we have to try and match those two concerns and find confidence building measures. On the one hand to diminish the fear in the Republika of Srpska, because that's what it is. On the other hand as Kris said, we are into a strain on the federation side because there is a procedure and it's better that these returns go through this orderly procedure other than in a provocative way. So that's a gap we try to bridge. Q: what report did General de la presles bring back from Pale yesterday, on the situation, between the civilian and military leadership? C. Murphy: well he didn't bring back a formal, official, documented report. Q: OK.C. Murphy: he had been sent there by the High Representative, Mr. Bildt, because General De Le Presles is to some degree his eyes and ears occasionally in Pale. So they had a conversation on the subject. And General De La Presles brought Mr. Bildt up to date, but it doesn't contradict anything that IFOR has said, which is a more... We are not getting into military affairs here. I mean the office of High Representative was simply informing itself as to what was going on. Q: would you characterize what is going on now in the Republika Srpska as a open rift between the military and the civilian leadership? C. Murphy: clearly. Q: IFOR's view as well? Maj Haselock: I don't think we have had those indications as yet. No . We are still trying to clarify that. We certainly have had no difficulty in our ongoing relations with the VRS. C. Murphy: anybody else? Q: process for refugee returns. Maybe I’m missing something but the process for refugee returns pertains only to the ZOS, does it not? K. Janowski: yes. That's correct. Q: all this attention to the ZOS is simply a (inaudible) direction of NATO because they have some responsibilities there, and would be very happy if, ya know, nothing ever happening in the ZOS at all, but would require them to you know.... Get involved. There's no process for the return of the vast majority of refugees who are expelled or fled territories controlled by their ethnic rivals? Is that not true? K. Janowski: well the ZOS being strategically important and very sensitive was sort of singled out as the area of which returns should be regulated in a particular way. Also the ZOS is in fact the only area in Bosnia Herzegovina where minorities can return. Because IFOR has the ultimate say there rather than the Bosnian Serbs, who normally oppose returns. I think on other returns to other areas of Bosnia Herzegovina, we have been trying to organize those returns but we didn't get very far. Even assessment visits have been mostly unsuccessful. We have some place spent weeks and some place spent months negotiating a visit by 50 people to their home village and then everything falls apart. In best scenario it's canceled and in a bad scenario they encounter a hail of stones. So there is complete hostility towards returns in Srpska. And indeed there's not process for return to Republika Srpska, since there's completely no cooperation by the authorities. In fact our effort to return minorities to Republika of Srpska are being sub-dashed so that's the picture and it's not a pretty one but there it is. Maj Haselock: I also, if I mean if I may say so I think the implication in your question is slightly disingenuous. In the sense that NATO has the responsibility for maintaining the peace with in the Dayton Accord. The procedure which was agreed by the (inaudible) community and by the parties developed after a series of violent incidents. It was developed to prevent this sorts of violence that are occurring, which are previously the sorts of incidents that could degenerate into a conflagration, which would actually upset the peace process. We have the right, the responsibility, to insure that peace is maintained, and that is one of the reasons why the zone of separation is so sensitive. Because it is the very interface between the 2 people with whom there is the argument, the 2 entities within the argument, and that is why it is regarded as such a sensitive area. And particular (inaudible) as we've discussed from this point (inaudible) is of itself strategically extremely sensitive to both sides. So that is why that we need some form of control to make sure there is nothing done which is actually like to generate into incidents which could cause a break down into serious violence. Q: even if I am inclined to grant all that, even if I’m inclined to believe personally that the Bosnian government is instigating these instances for reasons I fully don't understand, but that don't maybe have all that much to do with refugee returns, isn't it at least equally ingenious on the part o f the people sitting on your side of the table to suggest that there is some process in place to suggest that there is some process in place to which refugees who want to return to their homes can look forward to receiving some justice. Because that's a preposterous claim based on the facts, the numbers of people who have been able to go back to their homes, versus the number of people who need to go back. So it seems to me you should be saying exactly what is happening, which is the process... Is you know not working for whatever reason. And there are provocation which (inaudible) like the political issues. Not suggesting there is a process that people should be applying to because it will enable them to go home. Because it just isn't happening. Maj Haselock: I don't think, I don't think we have, I think to a certain extend I wouldn't go as far as that, but I think we have actually said that on a statement. I mean clearly one of the reasons why this has happened because this process hasn't developed as well as we like, and we said that in our opening remarks. Clearly it hasn't happened as quickly and not enough people have been able to return. There has been a series of attempts and counter attempts to actually increase the fear, intimidate people who (inaudible) who have been quite firmly on the front foot in condemning the... Both sides in particular (inaudible) around Prijedor is concerned. I mean carrying on (inaudible) against those villages where people may wish to return, and contributing this feeling of fear an intimidation. (inaudible).. Janowski: a process can be worked out or established once this political will... Political will on part of the receiving entity as it were to accept those refugees. I mean if they are adamantly opposed to it, if they organize circles... Spontaneous demonstrations with stones and if people can not even go have a look then obviously there's no political will. That entity is in flagrant violation of the commitment to allow return of refugees and displaced persons, that is minorities, displaced persons. And if you have that political attitude that what sort of process can you work out, you're basically stuck. Maj Haselock: Dayton requires and supports and requires the right to return. But it also requires that to be done in a phased and orderly and peaceful fashion. Q: (no microphone)...(inaudible) you went right back to the process which isn't... It just doesn't exist. Maj Haselock: no process at all existed before (inaudible). We have tried to introduce a process which (tapes stops) (inaudible).... Q: hi my name is Laura Hubbard, from NPR. I’m sorry if this is a naive question. But I just don't understand what IFOR means by containing the situation. Because I understood yesterday on Bosnian radio there was provocation on the Serb side to attack the villagers. It called to attack the villagers on the Serb side. So I’m not certain if IFOR then will protect the villagers against the attacks from the Serb side or because they came without due process, you would evacuate those people, or neither of the above? I’m... I’m... Just unclear. Maj Haselock: well first of all there's no question, we're not allowing anybody to attack anybody, I mean that is fundamentally abcenter of what we are doing in this country. I mean we are here to prevent acts of violence, so therefore clearly we would be there to prevent such a thing happening. Containing means preventing the situation from deteriorating any further and making sure that neither side is able to get at the throats of each other. And that's what we intend to do. What we intend to do further, remains to be seen and will come clear through the course of the day. Q: but theoretically then you could protect villagers for a sustained period of time? To remain on that place even though they did not follow the process? Maj Haselock: we will protect them as they are there. We will then establish what there rights to be there are. We have said that they ... Shouldn't be there, we've said they should go through the established procedure if they are going to stay there. (inaudible) I would wish to situate the depreciation in terms of referring back to Jusici, but in similar circumstances, Jusici, we made sure the people there were protected. But at the same time we insisted they were removed and eventually agreement was struck were they were evacuated from the village. Where upon the procedure was then allowed to take it's course and people's who applications ahd been cleared were able to return. So clearly we're not there to protect them when they are doing something that that we believe is fundamentally against the principles that are being agreed. But equally we are not allowing it to happen which, endangers either side. C. Murphy: a last question from Philip. Q: Simon you said that they shouldn't be there and I’m not sure if you mean that all those people shouldn't be there. There are a lot of women, children, that came along that probably don't have guns. I think your biggest problem is probably that there are a lot of thugs running around with pistols in a very small area. And the world's most powerful military alliance doesn't think it's in the interest of the Peace Agreement to just tell the Serb police that they can not can not carry pistols in the IEBL. What business do they have running around with pistols? What good do they do? Why don't they carry billy clubs? Maj Haselock: well the first thing is I....(interruption) A. Ivanko: first of all I’m... Most of the RS police are located in, by the way, not the zone of separation but outside the zone of separation and the village of Koraj, which is not in the ZOS. Q: but they go in all the time. They go back and forth.. (interruption) A. Ivanko: police in any country, yours included, are allowed to carry side arms. And that is the decision that was made when we started structuring the police forces. That police would be allowed to carry side arms, that's all no long-barreled weapons. But side arms, they are allowed to carry their, that, and... All issues concerning law and order in the entity should be dealt with by the police force of that entity, let's not forget where these villages are located. They're located in the Republika of Srpska. Maj Haselock: as far as whether the people should be there or not, I mean people are entitled to go in there. But they are not entitled to stay, and undertake a return to a village, as far as we are concerned unless they've gone through the due process. Which is what the majority of this discussion so far has been about. And that is my point. Because they intend to stay and settle in those villages, they should in effect have gone through the correct process, and they are therefore flouting that agreement and in such they shouldn't be there. Q: how long can they stay? You... Kris suggested it's okay to camp there. I mean are you checking these people? You know who exactly who they are, apparently you haven't even been into these villages but how long can they stay and camp there? Janowski: they they vowed to stay forever, essentially. We would appreciate if they could... Have their stay there... Vetting... Through the international commission, we believe that mostly these people are probably legit... Residents of the village. Pre-war residents. The crowd was very very mixed, a lot of children, a lot of women, much more cross section, I would say of society crowd, than the one in Jusici. And my colleagues told me that these people basically that being extremely happy to be home. Even though their homes are badly destroyed, none the less they did violate the rule which was established recently on vetting first and return later. Maj Haselock: and also, I mean let's be clear about this. We are not in position to clarify exactly who started the shooting as yet, or where the shooting is coming from. But it seems from the reports we are getting at the moment that there are, that there is substantial weaponry amongst this crowd and they are prepared to use it. That is not merely a crowd of people going on a camping trip in the zone of separation. C. Murphy: anybody else? Thank you