IFOR AFSOUTH TRANSCRIPT 10 Mar 1996

In the interest of speed transcripts of IFOR press briefings are issued in unedited format Transcript of the Press Briefing held on 10 March 96 By the IFOR Spokesman, Maj. Simon Haselock, UKA At the Sarajevo Coalition Press Information Center Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen, First of all, I have one report of casualties amongst IFOR troops this morning. In a fire last night in a building occupied by British engineers in Mrkonic Grad resulted in injuries to five soldiers. One received extensive burns and is listed as very seriously ill and he is to be flown to a burns unit at a military hospital. I'm not sure as yet which he has going to. Four other soldiers received minor burns and were treated. The cause fire is at the moment still under investigation. Otherwise, there were no major developments overnight on the IFOR military front. IFOR troops continued their intensified patrolling in the so-called Serb suburbs and in the Areas of Transfer, where the new authority is being phased in.

These 24-hour patrols are most prevalent now in Ilidza, which transfers to federation control in a few days, and also in Grbavica, which the federation will take over on March 19th. The patrols are one aspect of the increased military security in the Sarajevo Area that also takes, in a number of power and utility sites, and plants that have been deemed essential to sustaining life among the residents. More sites are added as IFOR military commanders assess the threat to them. The security is provided by placing these sites under a closer guard. In addition, IFOR Troops are providing extra protection within the affected neighbourhoods for the joint, night-and-day patrols of local police and IPTF Monitors, whose job it is to accompany local police to the extent they can, given their current strength. We expect the need for this enhanced military presence in the Sarajevo suburbs will diminish once the period of transition is over. Although it is never prudent to assume that even the most agreed-upon plans will go without a hitch. We will be prepared for all emergencies. The civilian authorities, both the federation and the Republika Srpska, have by any measure been extremely lax in their obligation to provide basic services for all residents of these communities, regardless of their ethnic or political makeup. They have also dragged their feet in talking to their opposite numbers to help carry out this difficult, staged period of transition. An example has been the obvious issue of dealing with the cases of fires, or arson. At beginning of the transition period two weeks ago, when the suburb of Vogosca was affected by the turnover, IFOR agreed to offer military escorts for federation fire-fighters to go into these suburbs, where the local fire departments were unable to do the job. No one took up our offer until last night, when firemen from Hrasnica, In federation territory, finally agreed to respond to the fires that were burning last night in Ilidza. If the firefighting units in the federation call on us again, we will of course provide the escorts to get them to and from the scene of the fire. The only fire-fighting equipment under IFOR's direct control in the Sarajevo area is assigned to the military operation at the airport. The principal use of this is the obvious one - to call out in case of an airplane crash or fire that threatens the operation of this facility. However, when that unit has received reports of fires in which people are trapped, and lives are endangered, it has responded, and will respond. Now I'd like to say a few words about a difference in perception of our situation here in Sarajevo. When it comes to the Areas of Transfer, the so-called Serb suburbs, we are confronted with two Sarajevo's. First, there is the Sarajevo that is mostly abandoned but still houses a criminal element, and is still divided by memories of a long, bloody ethnic war. Because this type of situation is inherently a fearful place to live, or even visit, for several weeks there has been a deliberate insertion of additional IFOR troops, and a growing number of International Police monitors who accompany local police forces and are in the process of training more of them.

Their presence, according to our reports and IPTF Reports, has helped reduce the incidence of crime and law breaking. There has been one instance, confirmed by IPTF, of apparent murder and I think there is possibly another incident today. As for fires, we kno [...] f smoke. There have been no reported fatalities as a result of the fires, many of which occurred in abandoned structures that were already heavily damaged by the war. This is the Sarajevo you hear us describe from this podium almost everyday. But there is a second Sarajevo w [...] sonists run rampant, and people cower in their unheated flats day and night, counting the minutes before they are brutalised or murdered. This is the Sarajevo that some are convinced is the only reality. But we at IFOR are convinced that the second Sarajevo that is often talked about is an exaggeration. A product of fear, not fact. Not that things in Sarajevo are rosy. Clearly there has been a long war here. There has [...] ty services have declined. A water treatment plant ran out of chlorine and workers and stopped operating. Incoming and outgoing government officials, instead of working on these problems, have been arguing or boycotting meetings, causing problems to worsen. And although police reports are unreliable or non-existent, some people have no doubt been victimised by thugs who have evaded the Serb police officers who remain on duty. But we believe there is no reason for hysteria, or panic. No one should mistake anonymous threats of violence for civil rebellion. Sarajevo is not a city of tension on the verge of insurrection. The real Sarajevo Is not spinning out of control. And if [...] oods that are being transferred. They are authorised to intervene if they encounter acts of lawlessness that threaten human life. They have not had to use that authority to keep peace during the transfer of authority. IFOR soldiers have increased their military presence over the past weeks becausst several weeks, IFOR troops have been under orders to escort Sarajevo firemen, as I've said into the Serb neighbourhoods if the fire department requests assistance. Their help was requested, and granted, for the first time last night, to go to a fire in Ilidza. IFOR troops maintain a security presence around each patrolrom the Serb authorities to assist in the orderly departure of Serb residents of Sarajevo by guiding convoys of Serb army trucks that had been demilitarised and had unarmed drivers. IFOR troops have the authority, when confronted with circumstances in which life is at stake, to directly intervene to remedy the situation. Friday night, for [...] ants in the Sarajevo area that must continue to operate if the entire city is to have basic services like

Electricity, water and natural gas. As the implementers of the military tasks in the Dayton Agreement, we came here hoping to see all of the agreement's promises met and obligations carried out. Like the rest of the world, we are disappointed that the Serb exodus from Sarajevo means a defeat, a setback, for the promise of a multi-ethnic Sarajevo. As things have worked out, the most multi-ethnic groups in this country today are probably represented in this room - IFOR and the international press corps. But that is not a reason to throw the original mission of IFOR and our civilian partners out the window, and begin using soldiers to stop crime. If we begin taking over that job, we will be diverted from our primary mission of keeping war from breaking out again on either side. And we will only delay the start of a decent and caring local government for these neighbourhoods, which by necessity can only be delivered by people chosen from among the citizens and residegroup on refugees and displaced persons, UNHCR has been working with delegations from the federation side and the Serb side as well as with the Office of the High Rep, the IPTF, IFOR and other international agencies to address issues relating to refugees and displaced persons in the context of the re-integration of the city. We have worked hard to create conditions which unable people to remain in their homes if this is their choice and to ensure that the process of returns takes place in voluntary phased and orderly way in conditions of safety and dignity. The participants of this group have made real effort to assist in developing mechanisms related to displaced persons and refugees which will allow for a smooth re-integration of the city. Much has been achieved in terms of arranging for services to be provided to those remaining in the suburbs, and in terms of setting out appropriate procedures for a phased and orderly return of displaced persons and refugees to their homes. Unfortunately, despite what has been accomplished at these meetings, radical elements in those areas which are being transferred, have destroyed this progress through campaigns of arson and violence. The campaign against re-integration of the city has come from the people who are not in this working group, but from people outside. During the transition period many people left their homes of [...] rses, teachers and other professionals have told us that they want to stay. Unfortunately many of their institutions have been systematically destroyed, leaving them with no options but to leave. Factories which employed thousands upon thousands of people have been completely dismantled and taken away, leaving people with few employment opportunities if they remain. Under the DPA all citizens have a right to remain in their homes. Those who left their homes have right to their homes and all citizens remaining in the re-unified city of Sarajevo have equal rights and equal access to all services provided by the federation authorities.

We appeal to those who are trying to destroy the process of re-integrating the city of Sarajevo to stop intimidating people into leaving and to stop destroying buildings and the livelihoods of those who will remain. A. Ivanko: a few words from the UN International Police. The UN International Police is extremely concerned with the situation in Ilidza and Grbavica in the opinion of the IPTF Commissioner Peter Fitzgerald, there is a serious problem with law and order in Ilidza and Grbavica. In meetings with IPTF monitors in Ilidza, the Ilidza policeman have refused to pats against civilians there. We also have a report yesterday at 1600 in Grbavica, a woman was killed as the result of explosion, some are describing this explosion as a suicide. We are not sure that is exactly the case, because there is also some informatiothere is an law and order problem and it is up to people like IPTF and civil authorities to address that. If in conjunction with us, we have increased our level of patrolling there. What we are saying that level of lawlessness has not yet developed in to the open insurrection which a lot of the coverage so far has suggested. If there are lawless societies in another parts of the world, not just in Sarajevo. Q: I have been following the press reports very pretty closely, I haven't seen anyone suggesting there is open insurrection. I have seen a lots of people writing that they are wide spread fires, that the industrial base is systematically being looted and burned, that the facilities such as the one that mark cutts spoke up, hospitals, schools, are being dismantled as NATO does nothing. If you are reading into t [...] impression that is being created is that there is evidence of an insurrection. I haven't quoted that to any particular, that is the combined effort of the impression at the moment that is being created is that there is an open insurrection. Q: if people come to the conclusion that the wide spread dismantling and burning of industrial infrastructure, the systematic dismantling the schools and hospitals and other facilities essential for the communities to liven suggested, although there has been a considerable amount. What we are saying also, is that most of that staff is from a community which is migrating population which is taking with it. The equipment and stuff which it thinks it needs to take to its new location. We don't perceive that as looting and asset striping in the same way that you do. Maj Moyer: let me say something about the fires. Last night we had one report of fire in Grbavica. In Ilidza we

[...] what about anarchy? It seems from what Gen. Walker was saying yesterday and talking to the people in elementary school, that there was very little he could do to assuage their growing sense of anarchy within the community. Are you offering extra patrols, are you offering the security around the specific blocks of flats and facilities that those people, about 100 people we gathered there. They ask for ... he gave the qualified 'no' to them? Maj Haselock: I think first of all if you would go to Ilidza, both yesterday and today, you would noticed that there are those very patrols in every street corner. The second thing is that, we are having semantic argument, we can't get away for the fundamental difference in perception between the floor and the table. Q: my point and Kurt's point ...inaudible...nobody was mentioned the word insurrection. The insurrection is rebellion to overthrow the existing authority. What we are talking about is I would try to explain is creeping anarchy and it seems those precious little evidence that you produce to that impression that is g [...] to move, not least of which we believe that some of those people have had pressure place upon them which we would not wish to have done. But the fact remains that this is a migration of people with the goods ause you have to leave. And she said no I am crying because I have decided to leave and I am going to burn my house. Now that was an open decision that she has made to go ahead and leave and to burn her property. She doesn't want her property to falling into somebody's hands from the other side. The other side that they have been fighting for last 4 years. It is not that she's being pressured, it is her own, open decision. M. Cutts: let me say something here. Especially in Ilidza where we had some hope that more people will stay than elsewhere since there was a local initiative encouraging to do so. In the past few days we have had a lot of intimidation gangs going from house to house telling people to go. In one area in Ilidza where a lot of people wanted to stay, the man who was essentially leading the idea and his doughtier now missing, everybody is packing up since they feel under terrible pressure to go. People are coming to our office to ask us for protection saying we want to stay, but what are you going to protect us. So what I would like to avoid is the impression that all this movement is voluntary, and people feel more obligation to burn their house. Some times their house can, perhaps, be burned by other people, and in other cases, as we have all seen public building are being burned and cleaned out systematically. In our office in Ilidza, it is the only office essentially in that building which still has some furniture in it, everything else has completely taken out. Furniture is also removed and everything else which can be moved from our office in Grbavica. So it is a systematic removal of property public and some time private. Let's say profed with information but the local population is also being fed this information by basically groups of thugs rooming the streets of Ilidza. Q: Chris, does the UNHCR feel conferred by the new measures that IFOR is taking?

K. Janowski: well I would say that we welcome all measures that are taken to improve the security situation in those neighbourhoods. Q: do you think that they are sufficient? K. Janowski: well they are not sufficient in the sense that so far the violence has not stopped and arson has not stopped. So we would like to see more presence toth the coverage. Is the coverage of what is going on in suburbs accurate or incorrect? A. Ivanko: well in my feeling, and I have been living her for quite sometime, it is more or less accurate, except may be for a few issues that I would disagree with the press but everybody has got the right say what they want. In my opinion it is pret[...]d the city was levelled in two weeks. So there is a difference. Q: one of the things running parallel to this question of intimidating people who want to stay is more familiar theme has been going on for 4 years more or less unhindered, and it is ethnic cleansing. We had reports, I think day before yesterday that there is sort of final cull going on of Non-Serbs In these areas. I am not quite sure what to infer from what you are saying, on the one hand the policaded and these are Muslims, it does seem that the last hunt going on. Are you are saying you are trying to protect people the suburbs yet. Nevertheless, what I have tried to say to you, is that we are endeavouring to provide security such as we can in those areas. But the point that I want to make, I think that needs to be made again. It is the business of the parties, I know you don't like saying that, but this was an agreement which was brokered at Dayton between various parties of the peace agreement. The transition arrangements and the specific plan for the transition in the suburbs was brokered between the High Rep, ourselves, the IPTF and the parties. They were suppose to make sure that there was an orderly transition of authority by making sure that the civil authorities responsible for those areas remainedon or for Rep Srpska. We are here to help them transferee their civil authorities in an orderly way.. we are clearly disappointed which is an understatement in the way they've fulfilled their obligations. Q: it is some sort of border line between common sense and the mandate. If the somebody's life is endangered there are policeman available they are not coming out, presumably if you stuck up a couple of policeman outside the property somebody's less likely to be killed. It is not a question of flexibility? Maj Haselock: we are arguing what you have seen against what I have seen. As far as I am concerned the IFOR position is that we will intervene in situations, we said that in opening statement, we will intervene in situations where life is endangered. If we see something occurring or patrol see something occurring it is require to intervene. There is no question on that.

Q: but IPTF (inaudible)... the Bosnian Serb police. We all know, they're the people doing intimidation? Maj Haselock: well I can't answer for the IPTF. A. Ivanko: well I doubt that they are doing the intimidation right now, b [...] Of thugs on the streets of Ilidza? Maj Haselock: again this is the question of your perception I keep saying, we are increasing our presence in those areas and we intend to produce as secure environment as we can. And we will continue to increase our presence, particularly in the areas you mentioned. Over the next few days up until the 19th March. Q: you have pointed out many times to the fact that IFOR has increased its presence in the suburbs. Could you illustrate that by some figures. could you give us an idea of how much of an increase is there since the beginning of these two ... you have mentioned already.... Maj Moyer: I have got some information on that. In Grbavica, the Italians have two companies worth of soldiers and that's about 250-260 soldiers for that small area and that's a lot. In Ilidza, the French have quite a presence. In fact, every street, every alley that I walked down yesterday there was a Frenchman on patrol. I don't have this specific figures on the number of soldiers that they have in Ilidza but I assure you that it is quite extensive. Q: when you are talking about the increase, could you sa [...] yent, based on the terrain, based on what the mission is there and on the level of security they are supposed to provide on the number of soldiers they need. Maj Haselock: they have increased the frequency of their patrols. The numbers of people in that areas tends not necessarily to change. It's the question of frequency of patrolling. You may wish to speak to Col. Pople afterwards for the exact details on that, but they have increased significantly their presence on those areas. Q: you've said that you are adding sites to the list of your protective sites. Are you adding, among those sites particular areas, for example, within Grbavica where UNHCR say there threatened populations that don't want to be concentrated in groups where Non-Serbs are living, where numbers of people have received threats. Do you liaise, for example with the UNHCR to decide if this is an area where we need particularly heavy presence.

Maj Haselock: we'll respond to requests from all the civil agencies if they ask us for them and deal with them on the case-by-case basis. We had provided assistance directly to the UNHCR for various things as far as security is concerned, our main liaison is with the IPTF, I mean, IPTF Commissioner. And as far as utilities are concerned, there are a number, I think six additional facilities in Grbavica and Ilidza which we have improved the security over and those areas, it is not just a physical positions of those facilities, it's also the general area in which they are located, where the presence has been created. Q: Are you putting permanent guards on areas, on residential areas rather than patrols going up on..? Maj Haselock: again you are getting into the position of how we should fight our war in terms of guards or patrolling. We put into areas patrols and not necessarily static guards into area which we think need to have extra security. We will call where we do it, we will not necessarily be seen to penning soldiers on the street corners, necessarily on every occasion. Q: Alex as well, do you think it's a good idea to continue this policy of IPTF handing over information about people who you've said, they've been threaten, to the Bosnian Serb police. Maybe the Bosnian Serb police are hold up in their station, but they know a lot of other people in Grbavica. A. Ivanko: well, for example in cases where they know there are some threats, we have IPTF patrols going to that place a couple of times throughout the day. For example, we had situations like that in Vogosca, after the transfer there were, sort of, cases of intimidation of the Serbs still living there where we had increased IPTF patrolling. But bear in mind when you are talking about IPTF, you are talking about a group of unarmed policemen who do not have guns and can't arrest anybody. Q: what about the passing the information on the Bosnian Serb police. Why? A. Ivanko: that is our job. We are here to help the police of the federation and Republika Srpska in their activities. We are here to help them. Now, if they are unwilling to perform their activities, as it seems to be the case in Ilidza, them what we can do o [...] be. Last night the house was burning down in Grbavica. There was a man frantically running around just below the roof level trying to save his apartment with a bucket of water and there was a lot of IFOR and IPTF people. I overheard somebody saying in very colourful language that that guy is a goner. It wasn't until a journalist and somebody from the UNHCR ran up to try to ge [...] hat, in a very same suburb, Italian soldiers actually rescued a small boy from fire under similar circumstances. As far as I am concerned if they are in a position to intervene to save a live, they should do so.

A. Ivanko: I would agree with that on Simon. Let's now forget that. IPTF, just like IFOR is made of specific human beings coming from two dozen countries which may or may not react to one case in the same manner. Q: two questions if you allow me. One is, is it really reasonable in your opinion, to be blaming equally, or perhaps, not even equally, almost exclusively the federation for not providing fire-fighting services in territory controlled by the republic. You notioned that you are providing them with escorts, you know, is wonderful. But, where is the blame for the people on the Serb side of the line who are engaged in the destructive activity and who have the obligation under the Dayton Agreement to provide , for civil administration, law and order in the territories so long as they had it. It seems to me you are passing this off as even handiness when, in fact, you are blaming the very people who don't have the responsibility. Maj Haselock: no, I disagree entirely. I mean, we've said, I mean I disagree entirely in the sense I disagreed with your last statement. I agree with the rest of what you said. We clearly blame the Serbian authorities for not providing fire services. I've gone on record already of saying that th [...] on it is clearly the obligation of Republika Srpska and I said already that they clearly failed in that regard. When we alluded to the federation fire service, they are people who have fire equipment. We offered them the opportunity. Because they were the only people who may be prepared to go in there because the Serbs had left and were not prepared to do anyt[...]: My second question. In looking over my notes in your opening statement, it seems to me that you have made a pretty winning defence of what is, by my perception, a pretty smoky status quo. Is that really where NATO is? That what you have been doing is adequate. That you don't intend, you haven't made any changes since yesterday, you are not really making a radical change in how you are going to approach this problem, you are going to stand with the cards that you have and allow this thing to take its course. Because I want to give you a credit for that decision if that's it. If, on the other hand you are making new decisions and you try to give things differently, I would like to give you credit for that. Maj Haselock: Thank you for that Kurt. I Actually didn't give you credit for insurrection I said that was the general perception which came from it. I would like to correct you on that. What I would say is that we clearly stand by the statement, but I don't agree with the way you interpreted it. We assess operations on a daily basis. I mean, you know as well as, I the military operations are dynamic. We don't hold a set of cards to our chest and keep them there constantly. They are shuffled all the time. As situations change we will change our tactics. If it seems necessary, or appears that the circumstances required a change of tactic, or a change of posture, we will do that. And that will be done by negotiating with the authorities, with the High Representative, with the IPTF, as is required, and the UNHCR for that matter.

Q: so, no big change? Maj Haselock: there may be. It depends on circumstances or they may not be, it depends very much on how is the situation unfolds from now on. Maj Moyer: but let me add something. That's within our mandate and within our mission. The North-atlantic Council and the political body of NATO have not changed that. So, what Simon is saying is, within the mission and within the mand[...] say you could make decision on a case-by-case basis. Are any of these impressive intelligence capabilities being used to investigate or try and pre-empt some od[...] these intimidation gangs or is that a police matter for the unarmed IPTF who have no power to arrest? Maj Haselock: well, intelligence and police work are different things. I mean, we are interested specifically in the intelligence [...] oat his sources are telling him that about 200 houses and buildings are going to burn in the next couple of days. Do you have the same information? Do you have the same sources or do you HAV [...] vo areas and mostar areas, you talked about your remit under Dayton for the IFOR mission and you pointed to the 1 Annex that empowers IFOR under Dayton, but where does it leave the whole Dayton process? Do you see t [...] about mission slip. We hear that the elections in Mostar, due to be held, first of all this march and have been put back to May and then to June and there will be done on strict ethnic lines and the elections overseen by the OSCE slipping back to the end of September. Can we really expect a Pan-Bosnian elections under the military protection of IFOR to take place at all this year? Maj Haselock: I hope so. We again have not

[...] back to way [...] heir constitutional problems sorted out and we hope that the OSCE will be able to run the elections as is planned. K. Janowski: we entirely share the concern of General Walker. This has been a huge blow to the whole idea of multi-ethnicity, not only in Sarajevo, but in the entire country and it will have an impact on whatever happens here in the future. It will certainly have an impact on efforts to return Muslims, for example, to areas controlled by the Serbs today, or to return Serbs to areas controlled by the federation and we have already had signals from the Serb republic indicating that the exodus of Serbs from Sarajevo has been used as an excuse, not to allow Muslims back into their homes y [...] be, may seem small area wise, but is hugely important for the future of the country. Q: ...would you see, what prospect of any serious movement of refugees across the line back to where they lived in 1991? K. Janowski: well, we look at three types of movements. The first movement is a fairly easy movement of people going back to areas where they use to live which are controlled where they will be part of the majority. There's slightly more difficult movement of people going to areas where they did not use to live however those areas are still controlled by vary ethnic group which is also relatively easy. And the difficult one is to return people to areas which are controlled by another ethnic group which will probably havil. I think that the population in the Anvil area is 21 or 22,000. K. Janowski: that's correct. That is the fairest type of return. That is the return to area which is controlled by friendly forces. Q: if IFOR is satisfied that it is doing enough in Ilidza and Grbavica, why have you been so extraordinary defensive this morning? Maj Haselock: I think you know the answer to that as well as I do. I mean, we are wishing to correct a perception in that we [...] ntally don't agree. It's as simple as that.

Q: ... but it is quite extreme thing to have for a press [...] erson who have actually attacked the press. Maj Haselock: we are not attacking. Our job is to correct perception which we feel is wrong and that is what we are try [...] igence that there was going to be a mass exodus and we have all seen it, and given the fact that the ethnically cleanse or ethnically homogenous Sarajevo is going to have a very negative affect for the future of the Dayton Agreement. Can't you acknowledge the fact that NATO should have done a lot more to try to stop the exodus of these people from this country because in the end it is going to be your dime. If you will, by one [...] SHAPE or the other, whether it's going to be our flawed perception or not. There is going to be perception in the international community that NATO was not quite up to .. When it came to the transition in Sarajevo. Maj Haselock: I mean, that is a very difficult question to answer. I mean, ..site is always a wonderful thing hind sight. But it is much more difficult to suggest what we should have done or what we could have done. The fact remains that the people wish to leave their houses and move to another part of the country because they feel insecure for whatever reason. If we can't convince them that they are secure, they will move and we can't stop them. It is not our business of putting up checkpoints and barriers to stop the moving from their areas. I would say that we have done everything we could to convince them, including a large information campaign. What we would say, is that again the parties to the agreement have not done what they should have done to encourage them to stay in addition to that. In fact they have actively discouraged them. Principally, I accept, the Republika Srpska but I also believe that the federation has also not contributed as much as it could have done to reassuring them. Thank you very much.